Free Range FTW!

[Salka]

See I'm not so sure about that. I've been unemployed for 4 months now, I've had £0 in my bank account for about two months, and this month I can't afford to pay my rent (stupid credit crunch). But I still haven't bought any meat that isn't free range.

I've bought less meat, sure. But I still wouldn't buy anything non free range, I'd rather go without. I'd rather buy some cheap vegetables instead... pasta or rice or bread is all cheap and filling (and incidentally making up a large portion of my diet these days ¬¬)

So I don't buy this "not being able to afford a few extra bucks" thing (damn I'm sure there's a joke in that sentence somewhere). I really can't afford it, so I don't . People might have less money sure, so they choose to buy the cheaper stuff, but it's still their choice, and they don't have to do it.

Wow there also seems to be a really deep discussion about the value of empathy going on.

[DanJW]

Yufster, the reason people on low income buy cheap meat is because, firstly meat is a "high nutrition" foodstuff, in that even a small amount contains nearly all the minerals you need and several vitamins. If you are on low income for a number of years then cheap meat is at least a reliable source of nutrition and you are unlikely to start suffering from things like rickets (which is common in times and places with no easy access to meat).

Secondly, a lot of people in Britain are poorly educated about food and don't feel confidant about making nutritious meals without meat. That's a problem with the education system, really, "home economics" lessons have been failing for years despite diet being on the national curriculum.

So you are right, of course, that a small amount of quality meat is better than larger amounts of poor meat (some people can only afford small amounts of cheap meat though). The problem is educating people to that fact. Despite my mixed feeling about Jamie Oliver I do respect the efforts he has made in that direction.

[gdf]

I suppose I'm drawing from the fairly narrow scenario of a single mother who has a fairly budget but has to feed a few kids. In that case, I don't think that the animals' situation comes into it. However, if we raised the top tier of tax to 55 or 60%, increased welfare to those in that situation and encouraged farmers to produce free-range meat (not as keen on subsidising as healthcare, welfare and education should be the three main areas of government spending, but I'm not sure how else to "incentivise" them, perhaps the animal rights lobby could raise a bit of cash and gift it to the state for that purpose) then we could see a sharp fall in the price of quality meat and a huge increase in availability along with a marked improvement to care of "eatin' animals".

[by the way, why are so many users from Brighton? Hope I'm not being rude, but I'm interested to find out right now.]

[James]

Wow there also seems to be a really deep discussion about the value of empathy going on.

Is it even possible to accurately empathise with another species? What is it like to be a bat?

[brkl]

[by the way, why are so many users from Brighton? Hope I'm not being rude, but I'm interested to find out right now.]

Originally some were from Brighton, then the rest moved there for easier stalking.

[David]

[by the way, why are so many users from Brighton? Hope I'm not being rude, but I'm interested to find out right now.]

Originally some were from Brighton, then the rest moved there for easier stalking.

The movement of Thumb contributors has trended towards two geographical foci (San Francisco Area and Brighton), depending on whether a given contributor is of the North American or European variety of Thumb:

[Salka]

Yufster, the reason people on low income buy cheap meat is because, firstly meat is a "high nutrition" foodstuff, in that even a small amount contains nearly all the minerals you need and several vitamins. If you are on low income for a number of years then cheap meat is at least a reliable source of nutrition and you are unlikely to start suffering from things like rickets (which is common in times and places with no easy access to meat).

Secondly, a lot of people in Britain are poorly educated about food and don't feel confidant about making nutritious meals without meat. That's a problem with the education system, really, "home economics" lessons have been failing for years despite diet being on the national curriculum.

So you are right, of course, that a small amount of quality meat is better than larger amounts of poor meat (some people can only afford small amounts of cheap meat though). The problem is educating people to that fact. Despite my mixed feeling about Jamie Oliver I do respect the efforts he has made in that direction.

Yeah, high nutrition shmition (¬¬ what), my entire family (besides me) is vegetarian. My mum is a single mum with four little girls, doing her PhD, and they live on a very cheap budget whilst buying free range eggs, soya milk instead of real milk and no meat at all. My partner and I have been unemployed for four months have are going into debt, we still only buy free range or if we can't afford it, no meat at all. It doesn't matter what your income is, it is always a choice. You might have more incentives to buy the cheaper stuff if you have less money, but you still choose to do it, you don't have to. If you say that a lack of money is the reason that you buy intensively farmed meat then really, it's not... it is one of the reasons you choose to buy it.

Hmm after re-reading that sentence I sound more opinionated than I meant to... but I still solidly stand by the fact that people choose to buy it whether they're poor or not. They may have reasons but it's still a choice and one that they don't have to make.

Man you are right though, education about this whole thing is not good. Most people don't seem to be informed at all, and I'm sure that if most people who eat intensively farmed meat had any kind of a realistic idea of where their food was coming from and how it suffered, they'd try harder to buy ethically. Having rescued a turkey from a battery farm... jesus, it was disgusting, covered in open infected wounds and covered in lice and eugh eugh eugh, not something the average person would be able to stomach the thought of eating.

I suppose I'm drawing from the fairly narrow scenario of a single mother who has a fairly budget but has to feed a few kids. In that case, I don't think that the animals' situation comes into it.

Oh darn, I already kinda replied to this above. Well all I was gonna say was, my mum is a perfect example of that... She is vegetarian partly because of her concerns about animal welfare (and partly because she's slightly OCD but annnnyway ¬¬), and chooses her milk and eggs with that in mind. And as I said about, man, she couldn't really BE on a tighter budget. So though I think it is still -- jesus christ I'm repeating myself, I'm boring myself... uh... so yeah basically... everyone has a choice about it and it's not as difficult as one might thing to make ethical decisions. If someone chooses to buy intensive farmed meat it is because they place the importance of animal welfare below that of their family eating a piece of (cheap crappy ¬¬) meat... which personally is not something I'd do, I understand that other people would do it although I don't agree with their choice 'cos I know it's one that is so easily avoided.

Okay I'm going to stop repeating myself now, woohoo!!!

Originally some were from Brighton, then the rest moved there for easier stalking.

Yeah Marek, Jeez.

PS. I also have a brother! I totally forgot that. He lives at home with my mum and is not vegetarian, my mother makes sure she always buys him meat that is free range. My mother is in university at the moment and soley supporting a large young family so she's what most people would consider to be super super poor, but she can still afford to buy ethical food, so it can be done I'd also like to add that my mum is hot, and a scientist. And very intelligent. Just in case anyone was wondering.

Jesus this post is massive, sorry, I'm going to bed now.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Yufster

[brkl]

I need a veggie girlfriend or something. I know the bad stuff about modern farming, but it's easy enough to push out of my mind. I swear if a girl pretty enough gave me the evil eye at a store I'd eat soy for a week.

But there's so much I could do. Living in a Western country with any degree of comfort is more or less impossible without taking advantage of people in developing countries. Every god damn thing comes from the suffering of someone somewhere, because short of bleeding replicators there's no way to support this many rich rotten bastards (this includes your mom, because she can defecate on porcelain) with a world of six billion smiling people (let alone animals).

Sorry about involving your mother in my rant.

[Roderick]

For the past year-and-a-half I've been what I'd like to call a 'meat-minimalist'; eating meat with only half of my meals and taking care to buy good meat in small quantities. The reasons are not so much the well-being of animals (though that enters into it of course), but the strain meat puts on other resources like grain. It takes ten kilo's of grain to produce one kilo of meat, and that's just unacceptable. Though the Earth is more than capable of providing for us and many generations to come, there will be time when food grows scarce. Why not already build proper judgement of that in our culture and be aware of resource expenditure?

Besides that, not having meat in my meals half of the week forces me to think about my diet and eat way more vegetables than I'd do otherwise, making me a much healthier person.

[ADDED] Also, James said something on page one that was nonsense, about animals not feeling pain. They feel pain alright, even if it isn't of the 'impending doom' psychological kind. I also don't know what being an atheist has to do with that?

[SignorSuperdouche]

My mum is a single mum with four little girls, doing her PhD

A) Your mum is awesome.

This sounds like the set up for one of those live action Disney films.

C) Your mum is still awesome.

[DanJW]

Yeah, high nutrition shmition (¬¬ what), my entire family (besides me) is vegetarian. My mum is a single mum with four little girls, doing her PhD, and they live on a very cheap budget whilst buying free range eggs, soya milk instead of real milk and no meat at all.

Man you are right though, education about this whole thing is not good. Most people don't seem to be informed at all, and I'm sure that if most people who eat intensively farmed meat had any kind of a realistic idea of where their food was coming from and how it suffered, they'd try harder to buy ethically.

I meant education about nutrition more than about animal welfare. You and Spaff don't count (low income means over a period of years and decades, not months) but your mum does. But having made the decision to be vegetarian your mother has had to be aware about balancing food groups so that her children don't become malnourished (not all vegetarians are good at this even so - hence the stereotype about them being ill and pasty) . Most low-income families don't know how to do this, and that is what I meant by education. Before they give up meat, they have to be utterly confidant that they can make meals that won't give them nutrient-deficiency diseases in the long run. A lot of people by all accounts have very little in the way of cooking skills and don't know where to start. Those people might not even be aware that they have a choice.

Understand that I am not trying to justify mass produced meat, I am just trying to show why it still sells. You have to understand the problem before you can begin to fix it. Simply saying "they shouldn't buy it, so there" doesn't actually get us anywhere.

[Marek]

I was just reminded of this movie. It's amazing but also holy shit:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0765849/

(It's German but has no dialog.)

Metallus, those are excellent maps. It's even more true if we put Brighton and London together and call it the London Area or something. I wonder if the two thumb clusters will cross-pollinate. Maybe I'll go live in SF in a couple of years.

[Nick]

I've been unemployed for 4 months now, I've had £0 in my bank account for about two months, and this month I can't afford to pay my rent (stupid credit crunch).

Why have you not signed on at the job centre and received money from them since you were made redundant like most the rest of us? That's why you payed your taxes whilst you were working, so that when you are made redundant at the start of a recession, you still have some money given to you to live with. Additionally you should hit up the council for housing benefit to help pay your rent.

I did both of these things very shortly after being made redundant and get about £200 every fortnight. That only just about covers my rent, I don't want to live like this and try insanely hard to find a job every day. But they'll help me until I do.

You have no excuse for having £0 in your bank for two months. People like you make me sick! If you're not going there because you're embarrassed to be signing on then you don't deserve any fucking money or a fucking job for that matter. Pull your fucking finger out.

[ThunderPeel2001]

AS for the natural/organic thing, yeah that field (!) is filled with a lot of bullshit, which muddies the water of what is actually trying to be achieved. For instance, an organic solution to pests is 'biological control', such as introducing natural predators. Unfortunately introducing a non-native species can have terrible results (such as rabbits and cats in Australia and New Zealand).

Bit of a sweeping statement, don't you think? We're talking about food, not pest control in New Zealand. As previously mentioned, here in the UK there is indeed a legal definition for anything with the word 'Organic' on it.

[DanJW]

Bit of a sweeping statement, don't you think? We're talking about food, not pest control in New Zealand. As previously mentioned, here in the UK there is indeed a legal definition for anything with the word 'Organic' on it.

meh, I was just using that as an example. And pest control is a massive part of food production and only increases the impact it has on our environment. I guess my point was that something can be organic and still be bad for the environment (but at least it will be healthier to eat!)

[Salka]

I meant education about nutrition more than about animal welfare. You and Spaff don't count (low income means over a period of years and decades, not months) but your mum does. But having made the decision to be vegetarian your mother has had to be aware about balancing food groups so that her children don't become malnourished (not all vegetarians are good at this even so - hence the stereotype about them being ill and pasty) . Most low-income families don't know how to do this, and that is what I meant by education. Before they give up meat, they have to be utterly confidant that they can make meals that won't give them nutrient-deficiency diseases in the long run. A lot of people by all accounts have very little in the way of cooking skills and don't know where to start. Those people might not even be aware that they have a choice.

Understand that I am not trying to justify mass produced meat, I am just trying to show why it still sells. You have to understand the problem before you can begin to fix it. Simply saying "they shouldn't buy it, so there" doesn't actually get us anywhere.

Right, exactly, they still do have a choice, they just mightn't be aware that they do, but my point is still entirely valid. I know why it still sells, that's not the point of this thread, I'm not confused as to why people buy it. I understand where the problem is, that's why I started this thread to raise awareness for people that mightn't ever have given it some thought.

Nick go fuck yourself you scrounger.

[Nachimir]

For the past year-and-a-half I've been what I'd like to call a 'meat-minimalist'; eating meat with only half of my meals and taking care to buy good meat in small quantities. The reasons are not so much the well-being of animals (though that enters into it of course), but the strain meat puts on other resources like grain. It takes ten kilo's of grain to produce one kilo of meat, and that's just unacceptable.

This is very much my position too.

I never really enjoyed meat when I was growing up, and always knew I'd move out and not bother eating much of it. Learning about the 10:1 ratio in resources greatly reinforced that.

That said, I guess my parents probably bought cheap stuff as that's what they seem to do now. Cheap red meat can make me feel hungover the next day. A few times a year I'll have a good steak or something lean and really enjoy it (Steak cut into strips and cooked in a proper Japanese style is incredible; the shortage of pasture over there means they treat it as a delicacy). I also eat a bit of meat if I've been ill, as it's too easy to eat badly as a vegetarian and prolong recovery.

[Marek]

Steak cut into strips and cooked in a proper Japanese style is incredible

I just want to say: hell yeah!!! HIGH FIVE BRO

[Erkki]

Turkeys for instance... they're awesome birds, but very few people see them as anything other than meat (you don't hear cute stories and see cute movies about cute turkeys) and so people are more willing to see them being horribly abused.

[Salka]

See?!? They're SO awesome! Turkeys make awesome pets, they're so cool, I love them

[Wrestlevania]

But they make even awesomer dinner! Especially if you wrap them in thin slices of meat from another animal. Or - better yet - stuff the corpse of one animal inside another, then perhaps another--all the way up to 10 if you like!

In all seriousness, Hugh Fernly-Dickwhittingstall's antics sometimes make me ashamed to be a devout meat-eater. It's not because it's "too real", but because I don't have a very strong stomach - and also find the idea of cooking animal corpses, one inside the other, quite deeply disturbing. Bit of sage and onion, fine. But fitting dead bodies together like a matryoshka doll is disturbing.

I'll stick with what they hosed off the machinery, mixed with breadcrumbs (and gods know what else) and then squirted into edible tubes, if it's all the same with you.

[Salka]

Actually I don't think turkeys make very good dinner at all. I'm sure I'm not alone in saying this. They make wayyy better pets than they do dinner. Turkey meat is rubbish.

[James]

[ADDED] Also, James said something on page one that was nonsense, about animals not feeling pain. They feel pain alright, even if it isn't of the 'impending doom' psychological kind. I also don't know what being an atheist has to do with that?

That's not what I meant at all. What I meant was that, if it could be engineered such that an animal could be slaughtered without any pain (including psychological pain, and including the time before the actual act), given that I, as an atheist, don't believe in any sort of eternal essence of a living being -- that the being that was once there, is there no longer -- no suffering has been produced. Death would have to be instantaneous, of course (unless you were going to mess around with drugs or something), but I don't think this is an impossibility. I don't know how animal slaughter is done at the moment, but swift-and-decisive application of metal to the brain should do the trick, I would have thought.

Whilst I don't presume to know in any significant detail what the conscious or semi-conscious experience of an animal is like, but I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination at all to suppose that some animals feel pain. What I was stating, rather, was that if this pain could be avoided, so too could the problem. Possibly.

[SignorSuperdouche]

stuff the corpse of one animal inside another, then perhaps another--all the way up to 10 if you like!

Man that looks tasty

My Nan lives in by one of the River Cottage places and the food there is excellent. It's rather expensive and the portions were niggardly though.

[Salka]

River Cottage places? oh oh oh... that guy! I bought two of his books recently, one about meat and one about fish... he's really excellent, I respect him loads. I totally recommend those books.

He makes a nice change from some of the absolute fuckers who are celebrity chefs at the moment... Who's the one who professes to hate vegetarians? Gordon Ramsey was it? Or Antony Bourdain? Probably both? Anybody who makes a blanket statement about hating vegetarians needs a punch in the fucking face. Spaff used to be this way, however he's mellowed out with age and is now quite a nice, affable person.