Twin Peaks Rewatch 42: The Return, Part 8

[Joewintergreen]

This is small potatoes in the context of the episode but I'm confused as to what BadCoop was doing with his phone re tracking devices. He looks at his phone, goes "this car has three tracking devices on it" then "pull up close behind that truck", he types the truck's license plate number into his phone, says "that should do it" and throws his phone out the window. What the hell effect is that supposed to have on the tracking devices

[anderbubble]

1 hour ago, LillyBaeum said:

"Why are you saying this thing is bad?? This forum is for people who like this thing!!" is totally unconstructive, sure there's a line to draw to avoid unnecessary trolling, but I don't think we need an echo chamber.

 

Well, that's not actually what I said. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing; it's great, in fact. But simply voicing a different opinion isn't constructive, either: describing one's experience is.

 

It's fair enough that I didn't really provide much else to go on myself: perhaps a better response I could have had would have been to ask _why_ the poster thought this episode was bad. The poster claims that it is as though it's obviously true and needs no supporting argument, but that's clearly not the case given the general conversation in the forum to that point. The poster should state their opinion in the context of the current discussion.

 

As-is, the post comes off as though anyone who doesn't see the episode as ridiculous garbage is an idiot.

[Gailbraithe]

24 minutes ago, Lacabra said:

This is small potatoes in the context of the episode but I'm confused as to what BadCoop was doing with his phone re tracking devices. He looks at his phone, goes "this car has three tracking devices on it" then "pull up close behind that truck", he types the truck's license plate number into his phone, says "that should do it" and throws his phone out the window. What the hell effect is that supposed to have on the tracking devices

 

Bad Cooper seems to have access to "magical technology."  He disrupted the entire prison by punching codes into the phone, he hacked into the prison system and got blueprints with Windham Earle's 25+ year old black box, it just seems to be a thing with him.  This only supports my theory that Bad Cooper is a "black magician" or "evil sorcerer."  But yeah, technology in his hands is essentially magic.

[Joewintergreen]

I get that, but this instance seemed a bit more...grounded? Like he's exploiting technology rather than just overriding all logic involved in it? Taking down the truck's number plate has the air of "I will redirect the people tracking me to this innocuous other vehicle, ha-ha!" when like...he already said the trackers are physically on his car. Felt less like we're meant to read it as basically-magic than his crazy phone phreaking

[LillyBaeum]

41 minutes ago, anderbubble said:

 

Well, that's not actually what I said. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing; it's great, in fact. But simply voicing a different opinion isn't constructive, either: describing one's experience is.

 

It's fair enough that I didn't really provide much else to go on myself: perhaps a better response I could have had would have been to ask _why_ the poster thought this episode was bad. The poster claims that it is as though it's obviously true and needs no supporting argument, but that's clearly not the case given the general conversation in the forum to that point. The poster should state their opinion in the context of the current discussion.

 

As-is, the post comes off as though anyone who doesn't see the episode as ridiculous garbage is an idiot.

 

Fair. I actually had only seen your quote and hadn't read through the whole post from the original guy - my bad - and he is pretty unnecessarily inflammatory regarding the episode honestly. You were mostly in the right. His post:

 

19 hours ago, fellintooblivion said:

Making this season 18 hours was the dumbest decision the person who made that decision ever made. Everything that happened in this episode could have been condensed into 30 minutes. Every week Lynch continues to prove why the people at ABC were correct in not giving him total creative control. It's now clear that whatever Lynch is making here he is making for himself. This is masturbation pure and simple. 

 

 

To make an argument against his points: "What lynch is making here he is making for himself" - that's something that I don't think is a bad thing. I've been thinking a lot about what it means to 'make art for other people', and I don't think you can do it in a way that isn't pandering/disingenuous in a way, after all, the only thing you can know for sure is that YOU enjoy something, you can't be sure if someone ELSE would like something, so all you can do as a proper artist is create what YOU want to see in the world, and make it as genuine as possible, and then HOPE other people find it interesting after the fact. Of course, TV involves generally many more steps of process between creation and airing, but the point still stands.

 

Just look at Weezer. That band's more recent albums seem to go by the mentality of "The people are gonna LOVE this!", rather than "I love making this kind of music!"

And lo and behold, their fans and much of the public tend to hate that attitude and anything since their older 'more genuine' albums. Do you want The Weezer of Twin Peaks, angry internet man?

[Gailbraithe]

Just saw something interesting posted on reddit, thought I'd share it here.  Listening to the podcast it seemed Jake and Chris were confused if the Woodsman was just the "Got a light?" guy or all the soot covered men.  This is a post from the guy who played the soot covered man in the jail cell, he confirms that they're all Woodsmen.

 

[LillyBaeum]

Is there any show out there that contains phrases as absurd as "Six woodsmen excising BOB out of Coopdopple" that make sense to pretty much the entire fanbase?

[Jake]

1 hour ago, Gailbraithe said:

 

Bad Cooper seems to have access to "magical technology."  He disrupted the entire prison by punching codes into the phone, he hacked into the prison system and got blueprints with Windham Earle's 25+ year old black box, it just seems to be a thing with him.  This only supports my theory that Bad Cooper is a "black magician" or "evil sorcerer."  But yeah, technology in his hands is essentially magic.

Whoa wait is that actually Earle's old computer??

[Crunchnoisy]

4 minutes ago, LillyBaeum said:

Is there any show out there that contains phrases as absurd as "Six woodsmen excising BOB out of Coopdopple" that make sense to pretty much the entire fanbase?

 

We must pause to reflect that he explicitly tells us it's an excorcism... so I'm curious what the badcoop character will be next time, without the core of BOB.   Will it be Dougie2, electric boogaloo?  And that's not just a tired joke.  We know how important electricity is to this mythos...  an electric boogaloo could mean... something.

 

[bigalphillips]

Does anyone remember HBO's Carivale?  If I recall, much of the second season featured themes of how the Trinity Nuclear Test was a key in the supernatural events going on in the show.  Remarkably similar (yet different) how the first atomic test brought about the supernatural.

 

 

[Gailbraithe]

44 minutes ago, LillyBaeum said:

Is there any show out there that contains phrases as absurd as "Six woodsmen excising BOB out of Coopdopple" that make sense to pretty much the entire fanbase?

 

Oh man, based on the reaction reddit is having to that post, I would say that if that line makes sense to you, then you're in the top 10% of the fanbase in terms of intelligence.  One of the reasons I came here from reddit is the fans here seem much smarter than the fans on reddit, where it seems like 75%+ of the fans are drooling idiots.  I really don't understand how some of these people can even enjoy the show, they don't seem to be able to follow even the most simple of storylines.  I saw one guy who read that Facebook post I just shared and came to the conclusion that Robert Broski played the Woodsman in the jail in South Dakota and that the Woodsmen are supposed to be the Archangel  Gabriel, which truly makes me despair for the educational system wherever he lives. I mean that goes beyond reading comprehension fail straight to check this man for serious head trauma.

 

40 minutes ago, Jake said:

Whoa wait is that actually Earle's old computer??

 

It hasn't been explicitly stated that it's Earle's old computer, but it's the same prop and it would make perfect sense for Bad Cooper to grab it before leaving Twin Peaks, what with Earle being dead and all.  I think it's a pretty safe assumption.

 

37 minutes ago, Crunchnoisy said:

 

We must pause to reflect that he explicitly tells us it's an excorcism... so I'm curious what the badcoop character will be next time, without the core of BOB.   Will it be Dougie2, electric boogaloo?  And that's not just a tired joke.  We know how important electricity is to this mythos...  an electric boogaloo could mean... something.

 

 

Keep in mind that may just be his interpretation of events.  I wouldn't be too quick to take it as gospel.

 

That said, BOB seems to be deeply submerged within Bad Cooper -- we've seen few signs of BOB in the show, with his only appearance before this episode being his brief and very subtle appearance in the mirror, which prompts Bad Cooper to say something like "Good, you're still with me" as if he wasn't sure that BOB was still there.  What that suggests is that the Bad Cooper we've seen so far is just who Bad Cooper is, with BOB being relatively dormant within him.  So I wouldn't expect Bad Cooper to change much at all.  I mean this could very likely be a way of subtly removing the need for the late Frank Silva to make any appearances beyond that black ball of tar with his face in it.

[anderbubble]

8 minutes ago, Gailbraithe said:

One of the reasons I came here from reddit is the fans here seem much smarter than the fans on reddit, where it seems like 75%+ of the fans are drooling idiots.

 

I don't think ridiculing others' ignorance is the answer. The audience here is just a more tightly self-selected group of people. People who have chosen to seek out a more niche forum, and likely who are interested in not only watching a show but in listening to an hour-long podcast on each episode.

 

One of the things that also makes this forum so great is the generally positive discourse.

[Gailbraithe]

9 minutes ago, anderbubble said:

I don't think ridiculing others' ignorance is the answer.

 

Congratulations on being a better person than me.

[Jake]

37 minutes ago, Gailbraithe said:

It hasn't been explicitly stated that it's Earle's old computer, but it's the same prop and it would make perfect sense for Bad Cooper to grab it before leaving Twin Peaks, what with Earle being dead and all.  I think it's a pretty safe assumption.

 

This makes me so happy you don't even know. 

[LillyBaeum]

Don't discount reddit, because they have numbers over us.

Some of the stuff they've found recently includes finding an interview with David Lynch in which he describes creating a clay ball full of turkey and cheese that he allowed ants to eat to create an artpiece.

 

An artpiece featured on Julee Cruise's album cover.

 

 

Huh, looks familiar...

 

Also, they have determined that in Twin Peaks canon, based on the part of the history book listed below, 6 logmen died in a fire and 2 more died from complications.

6 Logmen were dancing around/excising Coop.

 

 

One more thing I personally noticed while checking the Diner scene from Fire Walk With Me to make sure it wasn't the same diner as the 50s scene in this episode:

 

 

Look at that creepy woodsman looking dude hanging out, near the malfunctioning, flashing lightbulb!

Obviously not blackfaced out like the ones in the show, but worth noting!

 

Also laaaast thing since I didn't see it posted yet:

 

[Joewintergreen]

With all the light flashes at the convenience store, the shadows casting all from roughly-but-not-exactly the same point each time, and the fact that it's in fast forward, I assumed while watching that this convenience store was somewhere within unhealthy range of the nuke test site during possibly multiple subsequent detonations (explosions casting the shadows)

 

But who the heck knows

[Joewintergreen]

Also, the weird thing Dougie turns into that vomits his gold orb thing kinda reminds me of the egg hatching which I'm sure doesn't mean anything but I made a gross gif. I forgot this even happened

[GregsVice]

44 minutes ago, Lacabra said:

Also, the weird thing Dougie turns into that vomits his gold orb thing kinda reminds me of the egg hatching which I'm sure doesn't mean anything but I made a gross gif. I forgot this even happened

Seeing this CG now after episode 8 is just... Man. What a show. 

[dartmonkey]

4 hours ago, Gailbraithe said:

It hasn't been explicitly stated that it's Earle's old computer, but it's the same prop and it would make perfect sense for Bad Cooper to grab it before leaving Twin Peaks, what with Earle being dead and all.  I think it's a pretty safe assumption.

!!!!! Gonna need some gif-based verification on this one!  If true, I'm now imagining BadCoop updating all his electronic devices to CoopOS.

 

How are they all connected?

 

Via Bluecoop.

 

[dartmonkey]

Okedokey, so after spending some time over breakfast taking pictures of the bluray Eps 27 and 28 with my phone, I present exhibits A-C - Windom Earle's briefcase computer.

 

A

 

B

 

C

 

Silver case, looks like integrated screen and broadcast tech. Earle uses it to listen in on the bugged bonsai tree at the Sheriff's Dept and display the Owl Cave map. As far as I can tell, he has two of these cases, the other just for carrying stuff. He is seen to be holding them as he goes to leave the cabin with Leo and the spiders.

Now BadCoop's case and computer:

 

D

 

E

 

BadCoop's case appears to be just a briefcase, dark grey/black with a soft grey interior (you can see the cord going into the bottom half.) His computer appears to be a Surface-like tablet with keyboard attached which is just resting at an angle in the case. It is very similar to Earle's case, although seems to be a different colour. And as metal briefcases go, it's not an uncommon variant.

 

So, I'd say it's unlikely to be Windom Earle's. It's possible Earle left one in the cabin, then BadCoop went there, had a chat with/at Leo, took the case, resprayed it and used it for 25 years. Or maybe he found Earle's stuff somewhere in town, gutted the case, etc.

 

But it's probably just a similar briefcase.

 

Well, that was a productive morning! 

[Nordelnob]

17 hours ago, Gailbraithe said:

 

Well, my comment was more about the speculation than anything else.  I don't think it's very productive, and I feel like it all comes down to how you feel about Twin Peaks.  Personally, I think the "Bad Coop raped Diane/Audrey" theory does a poor job of explaining the facts that have been presented, but I don't really want to get into arguments with people over it.  Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right.  I'd like the show to say, not argue about it endlessly.

 

I gottcha'. I think I pretty much feel the same way. It's a bit pointless to speculate on things like that. Every time I have thought that I might have the answers, Lynch has gone and subverted everything almost immediately. Having to wait another two weeks is going to be tough. Even then we might not get any answers right away or ever. This is definitely a patience taxing show. But that is what I think most of us signed on for.

My main thing was that it seems there are a lot of people who tend to shy away from rape/sexual assault in particular as if it should be off limits as a plot device, and I'm not really sure I understand why. (I don't know if you remember the whole Game of Thrones controversy a few years back, but that was the first time I noticed this sentiment being spouted in a widespread way).

[Nordelnob]

14 hours ago, Crunchnoisy said:

 

Come Episode 11, I bet the "Mother" (garmonbozia-barfer) will be revealed to be a Guild Navigator.

 

Oh my God! You're right! I knew it looked familiar! Also, the sort of art deco stuff from the Giant's house reminded me a lot of Dune as well.

[prangman]

Hi all, first timer, this is my favourite TP podcast and discussion forum- definitely appreciate the quality not quantity vibe here :-)

 

Just a few thoughts about the episode.

 

-I loved it, but share concerns with many about the complex, human drama of Twin Peaks becoming a cosmic battle. I also much preferred the Native American take, which seemed to be the principal interpretation in the original series- for example, Hawk's accurate prediction of the dweller on the threshold, perfect courage etc, the fact that Frank Silva was part Indian and also the visual similarity between the jumping man and some ritual masks, not to mention the geographical location of Twin Peaks, in the most remote corner of the US, where I imagine native culture held on for much longer than in the East Coast, or the Southwest. The names for the Lodges  also seem to come from Native American lore.

 

-Related to that, many have pointed out a discrepancy between this idea of Laura-orb as pure good, and the real life, flawed, Laura we know from FWWM. If she is some kind of messiah figure, the show did not suggest that at all. But for me the bigger problem is BOB as some kind of manifestation of pure evil. BOB as we know him, both in his pure form and as Leland/Doppelcoop, is nothing of the sort, and certainly as far away from the cold, calculated apocalyptic evil we associate with the atom bomb (and the Holocaust etc). He is a creature of passion, lust and impulse. If he is the embodiment of pure evil, it's rather surprising that over forty years he kills only 3 (4 if you include Jacques) people, and chooses to repeatedly rape a single person. His motivation is pleasure- which is why he only kills when his ability to seek pleasure is compromised.

BOB for me is, rather than a satanic emblem of pure evil, much closer to the trickster figure we see in almost every culture, not to mention native American culture. He is bad, but his evil is born of a desire for self gratification and chaos rather than apocalyptic destruction.

 

-Therefore I really am hoping that this episode will be more than just a dualistic reduction of the meta-drama behind everything we've seen up to now. I know that, despite the Lynchian visuals, this has been interpreted as a more Frost-heavy episode in terms of plot and lore. I don't know a great deal about Frost but I will say that despite his obsession with evil, in none of Lynch's films is it ever suggested that the evil faced is simplistic or pure. In fact, in many films (Mulholland Drive, Lost Highway, , Eraserhead) the evil is to some extent within the protagonist themselves. Even in Blue Velvet, where Frank Booth is 100% physical and pretty irredeemably evil, there is a pretty clear implication that he has been seriously abused and neglected as a child. What's more, Jeffrey can only move on in the story by partly embracing Frank's evil (ie when he assaults Isabella Rosselini's character), and Frank identifies him as a potential protegé ('you're just like me'). In TP, Laura is fighting against the (almost) literal introduction of evil into her own body, and obviously Coop is undone by an embodiment of everything bad in him, or rather, all his cunning, strength, guile and power with none of the compassion and wonder that makes him who he is. Given all this it would be really shocking if in the end it was just a question of pure good vs pure evil, especially as this series is to some extent a summation of all of Lynch's work, visually at least. Then again, I remember finding the ending to Wild at Heart almost shockingly crude and simplistic, so it's not out of the question!

 

-On an unrelated note, I love that nearly every Black Lodge figure we have seen across the series has their own signature poem, and that they kind of suit their characters.

MIKE, who is played in an almost hammy, Shakespearean way by Al Strobel has 'one chants out between two worlds, Fire walk with me' a rhyming, formal poem with arcane language. BOB has a dark version of a children's nursery rhyme ('catch you with my death bag...') and the woodsman has an almost hippyish free piece of free verse ('water...well...white horse'), perfectly suited to his almost hipster-y appearance.

 

Thanks for reading!

[James]

Great post, @prangman. 

 

In the podcast they mention the casting of genuine teens for once. It might just be a matter of changing media sensibilities (do people not cast adults as adolescents as much any more? I'm not sure), but the impression I got was that it was that these kids are innocent in a way that their more modern counterparts were not when they were at the same age. In part, I think this is '50s nostalgia, and in part, I think this is a last glimpse at something about to be lost. The Bomb has been unleashed, Pandora's Box is open. 

Then there's the suggestion that the character is young Cole. That's not something that has occurred to me, but it adds an autobiographical angle for Lynch, which suggests a loss of his own innocence. Given how much his life's work has concerned itself with the dark, sordid and corrupt, its easy to see it as a mournful glance back at the last tile he could view the world through innocent eyes. 

 

Or maybe playing armchair therapist for David Lynch is a fool's errand. 

 

On 2017-6-27 at 0:46 PM, Yuecake said:

 

Ah yes! Well, apparently the convenience store is ambiguous in location. Also, this convenience store/petrol station didn't appear to have a second floor.

If anything, I think that works better. They're supernatural beings, so I'd they were literally hanging out in a straightforward physical room above an actual convenience store, that would be a little disappointing. I can think of at least a couple of other ways you could interpret it: perhaps "above" is closer to "superimposed", in the sense that it's a place in another world that intersects with our world at that location. Or perhaps they're in the mushroom cloud rising over it. 

 

14 hours ago, LillyBaeum said:

Very weird thing that I noticed rewatching the episode, probably been pointed out before considering you fucking people notice shit like reversed blinking,

When Ray shoots Cooper, he seems to only shoot once. The second shot is actually the exact same video clip as the first gunshot, just repeated. You can notice this in the fact that on the second gunshot, Ray's jacket jumps backwards in position to where it was before he shot, along with the wonky sounding audio. And the one-and-only shot sends Cooper flying backwards.

There is no second shot.

I noticed that, too. It reminds me of when Doppeldale shoots Phyllis Hastings in episode one or two. For a couple of frames around the shot the screen distorts quite severely (I posted a screen grab in the relevant thread). It could just be an effect to unsettle the viewer, perhaps to shake us out of how blasé we've become about seeing people being shot on screen. Or perhaps guns are another piece of magical technology in the Twin Peaks world, like electricity. Or perhaps stuff's just weird around that guy. 

 

Oh, and nice spot on the Moonlight Sonata thing. 

[belamoscovitz]

5 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

 

5 hours ago, Nordelnob said:

 

My main thing was that it seems there are a lot of people who tend to shy away from rape/sexual assault in particular as if it should be off limits as a plot device, and I'm not really sure I understand why. (I don't know if you remember the whole Game of Thrones controversy a few years back, but that was the first time I noticed this sentiment being spouted in a widespread way).

 

I think the trouble with using rape as a plot device (as in GoT) is when rape is presented as a rite of passage for a female character to "toughen up". Sansa Stark had plenty of reasons already and the writers inserted her in a scene that never existed to use this as her fuel to become stronger (when, in real life, what really empowers victims is healing, and not mindless, destructive revenge). Which, I believe, adds to the trope of female characters's relevant traits being a result of the actions of men, good of bad. 

 

In Twin Peaks, I, personally, don't feel this is the treatment given to any female character. Or to the subject of abuse, at all. So I think if these speculations turn out to be true, it would have a different outcome.