Hello & a questions on narratives

[Edd]

Hi folks,

 

I am new at this here board, but the Idle Thumbs team always seem to go on abouthow rad the forums are, so I thought I'd check it out!

 

Anyway, I'm writing / trying to write a wee blog about unusual narrative arcs i.e. ones which aren't three-act structure and the tension / excitement goes up over time in a wiggly line. In my experience / off the top of my head there aren't really any games that play with this structure in any particularly progressive way (temporal tricks don't count!).

 

SO

 

I was wondering if maybe you nice people could help me out? If you've any ideas for where I might *start* looking for games of this uncommon variety, I would be mighty grateful

 

xx

Edd

 

p.s this extra credits video probably provides a better description than wiggly upwards lines:

[Merus]

Hmm. Part of the problem is that the 'three-act' structure is kind of a misnomer - even movies that supposedly have three acts have a 'second act' that takes up two thirds of the movie. In games, it's harder because the player is in control, but also because games that don't have a solid pacing mechanic often feel subtly wrong, so that usually, only very bad games visibly diverge from some kind of peak-and-trough pacing.

 

For instance, most Mario levels are built with a four-act approach: the first act introduces an element, usually without much risk, the second elaborates on it, making it a little riskier, the third act subverts it by introducing something dissonant, and the fourth act harmonises the two. The vast majority of Mario levels are built with this approach, and as Super Mario Maker is demonstrating, Mario levels that don't follow this structure feel a little off somehow.

 

Then you have games that build unusual pacing arcs into the mechanics itself - Minecraft, for instance, has a story-like pacing mechanism when exploring caves. You have a desire for materials, be it iron, gold, diamonds, what have you, and descend into a cave; you explore the cave (and sometimes become trapped); it becomes clear you need to leave the cave; you emerge a little wiser, or you're trapped too far down and die.

 

Roguelikes tend to allow the random generation to create peaks and troughs for it, and some roguelikes build explicit breathing room into their progression.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know if we can help?

 

(Also, I've finally started watching through the back catalogue of Extra Credits, and it's amazing how much that show's dated in five years.)

[Edd]

That, is a helpful and insightful reply, thank you!

 

It seems that maybe there is a kind of continuum, with games that adhere to the pacing curve fractally (from top to bottom, narrative to mechnics) at one end and those which have a player-defined top (narrative) layer, like Minecraft. I guess what's interesting me at the moment is this:

 

...games that don't have a solid pacing mechanic often feel subtly wrong, so that usually, only very bad games visibly diverge from some kind of peak-and-trough pacing.

 

Partly because this is the recieved wisdom, and therefore I am inherently distrustful of it I feel like there must surely be some games that subvert this kind of pacing in a purposeful & succesful way? And if not whay not? There are plenty of examples in other media that play with pacing in unusual ways, is it just that games haven't got there yet or there a real reason why games are less (or seem less) forgiving on changes to that peak/trough structure?

 

Sorry that's a lot of questions, they are not supposed to interregatory Just kind of musing out loud, but on the internet.

 

xx

Edd

[juv3nal]

this does not refer to games specifically, and it is only tangentially relevant, but it may be of interest regardless:

http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict

[Merus]

Partly because this is the recieved wisdom, and therefore I am inherently distrustful of it

 

Fair enough. Can you give me examples of works outside games that play with pacing in the way you're interested in?

 

For me, at least, this kind of pacing is elemental. It's essentially combining intensity ramping up over time, which is essentially going to happen in a work the more time you spend in it, multiplied (in the mathematical sense) with a series of peaks and troughs, to provide contrast between the things that happen. I can imagine is a work without peaks and troughs, which smoothly ramps up in intensity in a way that feels like a prolonged action sequence, like the last half of a Transformers movie. I could also imagine a movie that sabotages the intensity ramping up over time, like The Tree of Life, but that's hard to do in games because the interactive nature of them usually means you can't provide the disconnect required.

 

That said, actually, MMOs have a parabolic intensity curve; most people quit MMOs because they bore of them. That might not be what you're looking for.

[Edd]

Something like The Tree of Life is spot on. While it doesn't exactly do this, Synechdoche, New York in my mind sort of qualifies, it always seemed to me to have an uncommonly long-tail of an ending, though I suspect that achieved more with affect than running time. At the risk of sounding like a broken record (in this crowd at least ) Infinite Jest very much qualifies.

 

Parabolic intensity re: MMOs is super interesting to me (especially in the sense that people quit because of it). This seems like the effect of unsustainable pacing curve collapsing on itself, rather than something carefully planned, I wonder how different those two things would feel to play? I'm also wondering if disconnect is required for this to work in games? The only current gamic examples I can think of are the kind of things that people argue aren't really games, like Mountain, or things totally intended to create a kind of harmonious zen-ness such as that one about fixing broken pots.

 

Also re juv3nal: That link is totaly rad, thank you

[Gaizokubanou]

I feel like there must surely be some games that subvert this kind of pacing in a purposeful & succesful way? And if not whay not? There are plenty of examples in other media that play with pacing in unusual ways, is it just that games haven't got there yet or there a real reason why games are less (or seem less) forgiving on changes to that peak/trough structure?

 

Sure, I mean lot of hardcore games with stealth elements kinda throws any sort of pacing out the window and demands some extreme patience out of the player.

 

Mobile games also introduced a completely new pacing... during play it's relatively monotone 'high tension' and it relies on really long timers, where players would not even touch the game, as their downtime.

 

Old school RTS games also don't have this peak/trough pacing... it just constantly scale up as player simply has more and more things to manage (arguably to a fault).

 

On contrast, 4X games get really busy early then peters off rapidly as you start snowballing (also arguably to a fault).

 

Driving games are usually pretty linear in tone.

 

Kojima likes to really drag the finale on.

 

I mean, games are way more forgiving on just throwing that peak/trough pacing cause as Merus said, player interaction can really throw a wrench in any intended design and players can have a lot of say in the pacing.

 

As for MMOs... they are mostly pretty monotone with no real curve?

[Jutranjo]

As for MMOs... they are mostly pretty monotone with no real curve?

 

I'd say they definitely ramp up. You start a typical WoW style MMO with a new character, you start in some tiny area with few options for combat, few directions to go and all these systems to discover. Then you get more stuff, more things to gather, more damage (numbers go up), more skills to deal damage with, a mount to move faster/fly, bigger cooldown skills that cause bigger effects, finding parties to do elite quests (2-3 people maybe), 5 man parties, 10 or 25 or 40 man raids.

 

DOTA and it's brethren have a curve in pacing that RTS games lack. Fighting doesn't happen all the time, there's lulls where you can think about what is going to happen and what you should do about it.

[Edd]

@ Gaizokubanou:

 

I gotta say, I think I disagree on almost every point, except possibly RTS / 4X style games - which admittedly, I don't have an awful lot of experience with. Re: stealth & driving - I think if you were to plot the engagement curve of a particular level, or the difficulty curve of the levels through the campaign / story or whatever you'd find pretty much the same 'wriggly liine trending upwards'. I can sort of see a case for stealth, due to the required patience, but also stealth levels often seem to have bottlenecks of difficulty with relatively safe zones between them, to create that curve?

 

Re: 4X / RTS - I have literally no experience of true 4X games (never played Civ properly, could never get into it :/), do Total War games sort of count? Both of this type seems to go for high starting excitement / busy-ness, then with a sort resource gathering / minor expansion lull before real enemy skirmishes kick in? I would say that both these types suffer from interminable endings. Do you have some examples of the kinds of RTS's you're thinking of? I't possible I am not thinking old-school enough

 

xx

edd