Is Social Media Eroding Our Humanity?

[Zeusthecat]

People have physically assaulted me in face-to-face situation for no provocation, and obviously that's not a possible outcome if entire engagement is done online.

 

I can definitely see how this is a lot more common before adulthood with shithead, socially inept kids but I have never experienced anything like this as an adult. Any abuse that has been directed at me has been far worse on the internet than it ever has been face to face. And I worked as a server at Applebee's for 4 years.

 

I'm not trying to say that your perspective is necessarily wrong, just that it is vastly different from what I have personally experienced and observed in my own life.

[sclpls]

I think a lot of Europeans had similar anxieties about the culture of letter writing in the 18th century. When I read Balzac novels, I see a lot of the same sort of pettiness and gross mob mentality of a lot of his Parisian characters that I associate with people mouthing off on something like Twitter. So I agree with all the criticisms people have with social media stuff. But I think maybe it isn't such a new problem, and ends up being fairly typical of the human experience.

[Apple Cider]

I don't know if I could really quantify random creepy encounters (I'm not including really horrible incidents in my life in this) versus systematic abuse online and which one is worse since they tend to flock about the same topics (my weight, my looks, my sexual behavior, my body, my gender, slurs, etc) and have the same effect. (making me feel horrible)

[Gaizokubanou]

I can definitely see how this is a lot more common before adulthood with shithead, socially inept kids but I have never experienced anything like this as an adult. Any abuse that has been directed at me has been far worse on the internet than it ever has been face to face. And I worked as a server at Applebee's for 4 years.

 

I'm not trying to say that your perspective is necessarily wrong, just that it is vastly different from what I have personally experienced and observed in my own life.

 

It really depends on where you live.  I lived in South Korea for about 12 years of my youth and it's just really grimy over there when it comes to smaller crimes.  I know they illegalized it now but back then teachers beating students was accepted part of the culture, along with heavy subway groping, assaults (because guns are banned and combine that with weak police, just plain old violence is pretty common), police bribery (no traffic tickets, just pay cash and go), spraying powerful pesticides in street (oh man those trucks looked so cool when I was a kid so all the fellow kids would run after the fume ), etc.  Also rioting is super hardcore.  I still recall when I was in a bus, we passed by a street with completely burnt car wreckages from riots previous days.  It didn't help that the year I left the country, a shopping mall and a bridge collapsed due to shoddy construction from, you guessed it, more corruption taking money out of material cost.  For all the smack that people talk about USA having high violent crime ratio, few areas I've been (exempting Camden and Newark in NJ, those places are awful) is just way better socially than SK by far.  Then in USA the area I worked retail in had large population of Jewish people and Haitians and face to face racism was real and strong (which was also very strong in SK but when 99% of people are of same race you just don't really see it popping up).

 

So I can see why some people are shocked by online behaviors but for me, I just feel like I've seen far worse more regularly offline.  A more funnier example would be... you know how people describe awful behavior as shit-flinging?  Well have you actually had a real shit flung at you? XD

[Zeusthecat]

Damn dude, that's some rough stuff. I see your point.

[SuperBiasedMan]

I'm not trying to say that your perspective is necessarily wrong, just that it is vastly different from what I have personally experienced and observed in my own life.

 

This is a non rhetorical question because I actually don't know your exact identity very well but do you think this is partially a product of privilege?

 

In my real life I feel the same as you, that I generally don't get any random abuse although I have had very occasional shit thrown at me over what seem like simple disagreements. But when I look at something like GamerGate, I remind myself that this is not behaviour that is only attributed to that hashtag nor is it purely an online concept. Harassment of certain groups is something that society just has, if you're unfortunate enough to be targeted as one of those groups. I could imagine that privilege is less visible online, so people can make assumptions about the kind of person you are and decide you're someone that they can harass.

 

None of this is me speaking from authority, particularly as I'm not in a position to debate the idea of online vs. offline abuse. I'm just trying to suggest a reason why there might not be such a difference for other people as for you.

[Zeusthecat]

This is a non rhetorical question because I actually don't know your exact identity very well but do you think this is partially a product of privilege?

 

Absolutely. I have no doubt that I experience much less of this type of abuse because of the fact that I am in a position of privilege (straight white dude).

 

But I still wonder, given any group of people, whether they are a marginalized group of people or not, would the abuse they might experience online be worse on average than the abuse they might experience in real life? In my case (as mentioned before), the answer is absolutely yes. What about for women? Going by the perspective given by Apple Cider above, it sounds like both real life and online have had their share of shitty experiences. But I wonder if the frequency and overtness of that abusive behavior would tend to be a bit worse online than in real life because of some of the factors I have mentioned previously. Then again, even if this were the case, being subject to this type of abuse in real life would probably be much more damaging to a person than what they might experience online because it is naturally much more personal. So I guess I just really don't know. And then there are other marginalized groups like African Americans. The N-word is basically one of the internet's favorite words and I have to imagine that word gets flung at them online far more than in real life. The systemic racism African Americans experience in real life is obviously a huge issue but I think if you are talking strictly person to person interactions, overt racism would probably be experienced at a much higher frequency and be much nastier online than in real life.

 

Unfortunately, the lens through which I see the world makes it impossible for me to speak with any authority on this so I could just be totally wrong.

[SuperBiasedMan]

Unfortunately, the lens through which I see the world makes it impossible for me to speak with any authority on this so I could just be totally wrong.

 

I feel entirely like this too! I'm kind of just prodding at a point, but I feel very similar to a lot of what you said and to me that leads to the conclusion that it doesn't seem like online abuse makes a massive difference to humans, it's just a tool that can crowdsource anything, which does include harassment. If that harassment could manifest as physical as easily as real life, I would outright say it's worse. But since that's a big barrier to cross online I feel like they take different forms but not enough that humanity is being eroded so much as people are grouping together more, whether those groups are good or bad is irrelevant. The groups grow and perpetuate the ideas they entail to their members. We just need to find the right tools to foster groups that are positive and productive, and to limit the negative outcomes.

[Gaizokubanou]

You are not wrong in a sense that what you are describing would totally fit the bill for large number of people.  But it also wouldn't fit the bill for another large group of people.

 

I mean online isn't a magicland that we wonder into... it's just a network full of content generated by other people that has to occupy some physical space somewhere.

 

If you live in USA, I both highly recommend (to gain perspective) and not recommend (for your safety) a visit to either Camden or Newark in New Jersey if you feel that you are lacking in perspective.  I was 'lucky' in a way that I ended up visiting Newark quite often due to going to law school there, which was heavily guarded by law enforcement.  So it was like this island of order in sea of poverty stricken neighborhood, and you just walk past few too many blocks and you had legitimate chance of getting involved serious crime.  Oh and when you go there, don't bother locking your car if you are going to leave something nice (something above $20 value) in plain view.  All that's going to do is ensure your window breaks

 

Gets really ranty this part so please skip if you don't want to read ramblings

As for racism, keep in mind that in most parts of the world the primary residents are super uniform.  It's not even a question of majority vs minority.  Based on spending 10+ years in a single country that fits that description and talking to few others about their culture, there's lot of racism that's ingrained in those cultures.  Racism is another aspect that I am probably very lucky to have experience personally but from largely protected position.  I'm Eastern Asian (white skin asian) male so while I actually got fed lot of racism over the years, it's actually mostly been 'positive racism' like "oh you are so good at math" (hint, I got C- in Calculus).  But my youth in USA was largely spent among poor hispanic population, who had this culture of strong identity associated with the grittiness of their poverty (strong similarity to african american ghetto culture of late 90s(which funnily enough, I think is also similar to the more older warrior-tribe-like society like one you see in say, Beowulf... I mean look at the intro to Beowulf, the dude comes off boat gloating his bling war gears and ride)).  It was this culture of super masculinity (which had strong sexist and homophobic aspects to it) where boys brag about 'fucking bitches' and how weakness made you a 'pussy'.  My mother was actually very clever about my situation so what she did was, she provided my childhood friends with ton of freebies and provided a haven for teenage boy (GAMESSS) so I became very popular among my friends and my difference (I was one of three asians in the entire school of whites and hispanics, along with the fact that I'm a short person at 5'3", definitely not fitting in with this culture of super tough guys) was almost never brought up.  But then I go to university (Rutgers in New Brunswick) and bam different people everywhere and lot more... wealthier as well.  But along with this came to realization that my childhood (my entire life up to that point) was just so... tiny compared to just sheer volume of different lives that people live, many worse than I, and many better than I.  I was also extremely homophobic til I entered college (which still lingered a bit til law school where I befriended a super flamboyant person... and let me just say, he dressed super fabulous with magnificent hair, I am still pretty jelly of his looks).  So the point is, all my own biases were conflicting with what I saw in a very safe and controlled environment through supportive university staff (the university was well aware of its diverse student population and was quite proud of that fact).  But no I didn't become a 'nice guy' there, but reflecting back it's like, yeah I've seen so many asshole behaviors but I was a huge asshole myself  right along with them that I just think that it's part of all of our flawed selves that definitely manifests in offline activities.  The problem with internet, if I saw any, is simply that most of us are not equipped to handle the sheer volume of social interaction that it provides, especially from comfort of our own home where we have that extra lizard brain defensiveness going up.

 

Again, that's not everyone's life.  And these are not meant to be 'woe is me, so if you disagree you are too privileged'.  I actually think despite all the stuff I'm describing to have experience personally, to have lived a very comfortable and nice life.  I'm just sharing tiny piece of my story to explain why I think the way I do, which represents me only.

[Zeusthecat]

I think I'm going to use this thread to start posting random social media stuff that really irritates me and makes me depressed about the future of our species.

 

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/28368768/2015/03/11/maricopa-has-a-town-landmark-walmart-golden-van

 

This was on every local news station last night and they spent more time covering this extremely stupid thing than they spent on any other story. I am completely baffled by this and will never understand how this type of shit becomes a 'thing'.

[Ninety-Three]

To get cynical about the media, it's because news is a business, and so its purpose is not to inform, but to get ratings (thus, profit). The way humans work, silly news gets more attention than informative news.

 

Unless you're depressed that people think posing with abandoned, untouched van is entertainingly silly?

[Zeusthecat]

I am just completely baffled by how a thing like this goes 'viral'. If someone creating a Facebook page for an abandoned van in a Wal-Mart parking lot leads to a new meme where people actually go out of there way to drive down there and take selfies in front of it... I can't even finish this sentence it's so stupid.

[undermind9]

I feel like that stupid BS has always existed in the world...but scale & awareness proportional to the news cycle & speed of which information travels.  

 

Pre-Internet people would stop and take photos of asinine landmarks that they heard about one time in a weird newspaper article or word of mouth.  The landmarks arent important (like a national park, symbolic place, statue, etc) - but regionally people know about them and if they are on a family driving vacation they probably stopped

 

For example - The "Mars Cheese Castle" a few miles north of the Wisconsin border - it has a massive sign, was a normal building with "castle shaped facade" (whereas there are tiny merlons), and they sell cheese, brats, and cheese hats.  They have since moved into a brick castle ...and still sell the same stuff.  Anyone in chicago or southern wisconsin and has traveled I-94 will at least know the name of the place...if not stopped.  Its been around since the 40's and people learned about it from word of mouth, the massive sign, or stopped on sheer curiosity 

 

This gold van is a local landmark...but for a few days before it gets towed or someone traces the VIN number to the degenerate that left it there.  The news about it traveled across the whole region in a matter of moments, taking photos are free, and people can instantly share with friends/online people who arent from this part of Arizona and have no way to take a picture with said van.

 

That spurs me off to another random thought/question - isnt the part of the point to have a digital/analog photo gallery to show off what/where/who you'be been able to take a photo with?  

 

Of course there are some very sentimental photos or simply to mark a time with a group of people in the same place.  But taking pictures of yourself in front of the Millennium Park Bean wouldnt remind you of anything except "hey remember that time we paid too much for parking and stood infront of a giant polished stainless steel legume".  But if you're not from the area - you can show off that you could go to said place (and all the socio & economic requirements to achieve said event)

 

Same thing with taking photos with a celebrity, at a sporting event, or even taking pictures of an exotic meal or something at an expensive restaurant.

 

In conclusion, social media is stupid, it is eroding society, and we're all doomed.  I think I will continue trend of not posting anything to FB, not tweeting, or taking photos of anything in my phone except for work or of my cats

 

 

 

 

Photos of referenced places -

Mars Cheese Castle

Chicago Bean - "Cloud Gate"

[Apple Cider]

I heard you were talking shit about Cheese Castle. (Which is literally just a glorified grocery store but it has a pretty decent bar where you can eat tons of cheese.)

[SuperBiasedMan]

Cheese Castle sounds like the name of a dungeon where you fight a boss in a pro veganism game that I'll probably make now.

[undermind9]

I heard you were talking shit about Cheese Castle. (Which is literally just a glorified grocery store but it has a pretty decent bar where you can eat tons of cheese.)

 

whoa there.  no shit talking, just using it as a landmark example of something weird people stop at to take pictures in front of / go to - even if they arent into niche wisconsin cheeses.  

 

And exactly right about the glorified grocery, I imagine Woodmans up the road has a similar selection and more - but i digress

[Zeusthecat]

Yeah, I don't really have a problem with people taking photos in front of random things for memories and whatnot. Whatever floats your boat. I've surely taken pictures in front of plenty of dumb things as well. What breaks my brain is just... how does this abandoned van become a 'thing'? I get the Cheese Castle thing to a degree. It is an actual building, there's cheese, it's probably built up it's cheesy reputation over a long period of time. The abandoned van is an abandoned van. An abandoned van. I'm just trying to work through how that happens. Guy sees the same shittily parked van for a couple days, figures its abandoned, creates Facebook page... everyone comes and takes selfies. Of all the abandoned vehicles in the world, why is this one selfie worthy? Because Facebook?

 

The only logical conclusion I can come to is that if I create a Facebook page for a cat turd and call it a Phoenix landmark, people will flock to come take selfies in front of said cat turd. 

[Bjorn]

The only logical conclusion I can come to is that if I create a Facebook page for a cat turd and call it a Phoenix landmark, people will flock to come take selfies in front of said cat turd.

 

DO IT!

[Zeusthecat]

If I can find a public place to put a cat turd where it will remain respected and undisturbed, then I absolutely will. I just don't want random strangers coming to my house to take pictures in front of my cat's shit.

[Mangela Lansbury]

The local phenomenon of some (not all that) interesting thing getting a weird amount of attention isn't new at all, so I don't know what the problem is. There's not much to understand about why something is a thing. The van is novel because it's double parked and a lot of people feel very strongly about double parking, it's funny because it's not a very nice car and people who double park usually do so to ensure that nobody parks too close to their precious little baby... It's just kind of a neat little joke that people are sharing with each other. Why this one and not that one is something that marketing departments around the nation are trying to piece together every day, so don't worry about it too much. I had to accept long ago that the Portland airport, for some reason, has the popular ugly carpet, set apart from all the other ugly carpets in the world for some unknowable reason. You'll probably just have to accept that this abandoned car, unlike all the other abandoned cars in the world, struck a chord with people for some unknowable reason.

[Zeusthecat]

The local phenomenon of some (not all that) interesting thing getting a weird amount of attention isn't new at all, so I don't know what the problem is. There's not much to understand about why something is a thing. The van is novel because it's double parked and a lot of people feel very strongly about double parking, it's funny because it's not a very nice car and people who double park usually do so to ensure that nobody parks too close to their precious little baby... It's just kind of a neat little joke that people are sharing with each other. Why this one and not that one is something that marketing departments around the nation are trying to piece together every day, so don't worry about it too much. I had to accept long ago that the Portland airport, for some reason, has the popular ugly carpet, set apart from all the other ugly carpets in the world for some unknowable reason. You'll probably just have to accept that this abandoned car, unlike all the other abandoned cars in the world, struck a chord with people for some unknowable reason.

 

#NeverEver

[Apple Cider]

The universe is a strange place. I love when weird unexplainable shit goes viral, or when we all commune around one strange occurrence, like the fucking escaped llamas. 

[Zeusthecat]

We must be polar opposites in that regard because I hate when unexplainable shit goes viral. It's a really weird pet peeve I know. I hated the llama thing too. Or maybe there's something deeper going on and I just hate anything that goes viral that comes out of Arizona.

[dibs]

Is it ok when weird explainable shit goes viral? Caus the difference there is probably just that you are in the loop. Like, when we get three pages of poop in the random thought thread.

[Zeusthecat]

Yes, it is okay when weird explainable shit goes viral. If I can look at a thing and say "Oh, I see why that went viral" then I'm totally cool with it. And come on dibs, we all know poop is a timeless tradition and has many more merits than mini vans.