Alchemic Skill Tree Idea

[malgox]

So, I have an idea for an "alchemic" skill tree system that I'm sure isn't exactly original, but I'm perplexed as to why it hasn't been used more often in games. Well, I can imagine it could be rife with imbalances and unforeseeable problems, but it still seems worth a try.

Basically, I'm disattisfied with how RPGs typically put you into a "class" than give you a bunch of linear paths to travel, all based on simply dumping points into confined categories.

I would propose a system where players choose from different descriptors to further color a base class. Instead, or perhaps in addition to, simply leveling up certain skills they'd instead choose ideas like "fire," "rage" or "bardsong" to modify the entire class. Hence, "alchemic," since you could choose different descriptors to end up with entirely different sorts of characters, not just distinguished by different skill-point allocations.

Anyway, since this is all rather free-form, I figured I could explain myself best by copying a late-night steam discussion I had with a friend of mine, where we elaborate the basic ideas. Its rough, and long, and fraught with mispellings, but I hope you can see the idea we're trying to hash out:

malgox: hey--I have an idea about skill trees

malgox: so; instead of like, levels indifferent attributes

malgox: what about you have "thresholds" where you take a new "alchemic" element

malgox: so, you start out as like, vanilla fight

malgox: but then you have a series of "alchemic specializations"

malgox: so, you first choose "fire"

malgox: then, all levelling up is "colored" to have something to do with fire

malgox: then, you choose "spectral"

malgox: so eveyrthing, now, also is colored ot have something to do with ghosts, or whatever

malgox: then you choose more abstract terms, such as "blood frenzy"

malgox: so, at each threshold level, your abilities all change

malgox: its not that you jsut "tick" more points into a score

zigavivei: Im dont completely understand what youre going at...

malgox: you literally carve more and more identifiers into your class

malgox: you'd end up being at Ghostly Fiery Frenzied Warrior

zigavivei: Yopu just skill whatever is associated with a particular word?

malgox: or something

malgox: no

malgox: each "descriptor" modifies EVERYTHING

malgox: its like adding specializations to a class

zigavivei: ah i see

malgox: except each specialization isn't like a new branch of the skill-tree

malgox: it, rather, "colors" or "flavors" everything

zigavivei: ok

malgox: hence, alchemic

zigavivei: I understand the basic idea now

malgox: I like the idea because if means you can create truly original class combos

malgox: instead of just differently alocated skill points

malgox: say you have 3 base classes

malgox: than 3 tiers of customizations, with 3 seperate tiers

malgox: *I mean, 3 tiers of customizations, with 3 choices each

zigavivei: different choice for each tier

malgox: yueah

zigavivei: Ok

zigavivei: Gotcha

malgox: you would effecitvely have 28 different options

zigavivei: wow

malgox: 3 x 3 x 3 x 3

malgox: I've seen skill trees adopts something kind of like this

malgox: but only in a limited sense

malgox: like SW:TOR having branching class paths at certain levels

malgox: but its not the same because it isn't modular or combinable

zigavivei: ok

malgox: so; thats my idea

zigavivei: so this is your plan for your class?

malgox: for Torchlight?

zigavivei: yes

malgox: if they had the system, totally

malgox: I'd be a mother-freakin' bloody ghostly fiery ranger-thing, man

zigavivei: I mean they dont but it would be interesting to test

malgox: it would be awesome

zigavivei: Maybe you could even make a mod like it for the owrkshop

malgox: if it would be possible, that would be awesome

malgox: than you could be a stealthy arcane-y dragony ranger

malgox: and we'd be different enough to justify being the same base class

zigavivei: lol

malgox: any way, I like the idea of a skill-tree expanding as you gain power

malgox: too often if feels like high-level characters end up being more the same

zigavivei: Is there a way you could make a visual of this

zigavivei: ?

malgox: yeah

malgox: imagine a tree

zigavivei: I think id understand the structure better if i saw it

malgox: you start at the base; than it forks into 3 paths

zigavivei: ok

malgox: than those 3 paths fork each into 3 paths

malgox: and so on

malgox: its actually more like a fractal

zigavivei: ok

malgox: so, literally, it branches

malgox: you start from the same core, but you end up at a different corner of the tree's outermost branches

malgox: same family, different genes

zigavivei: What prohibits a full branch from being better than the others? Wouldnt it just devolve into whatever does the most dps anyway?

malgox: did you see the Extra Credits thing about incomparables

malgox: in Torchlight, all you want is that final number

malgox: but in a more complex roleplaying game-thing, there are many ways to achieve an objective

zigavivei: yes

zigavivei: ok

malgox: so, think of a dota hero being constructed this way

zigavivei: yeah i get what youre saying

malgox: like, chracter creation being like invoker

malgox: like, you "invoke" a character class

zigavivei: yeah

malgox: so lets say you're designing an open-worldy, party-based game

malgox: you know, where there's a lot of room for different abilities

zigavivei: The more im understanding this idea, the better it sounds

malgox: your bloody beserker dragonscale guntoting archmage would have a different strategy for dealing with a problem than your ethereal monkish bardsong thief

zigavivei: Thats an excellent idea

malgox: the bardsong thief unleashes his "howling despair" ability, phasewalks, than roundhouse kicks a guy in the back

zigavivei: So you could feasably end up playing a stealth mage, or a talk thief, for use of more generic class words.

malgox: the mage unleashes his fury, fires a volley, has his dragon familiar eat somebodies face, and blasts somebody with a fireball

zigavivei: tank*

malgox: yeah

malgox: I mean, the actually descriptors can be cliched

malgox: its the combination that woudl be interesting

zigavivei: yeah

malgox: and nigh-infinite, for that matter

zigavivei: yes

zigavivei: I like it james

zigavivei: Im trying to think if any game has tried to implement something like it before

malgox: this idea's already being implements in tabletop games, but I think computer games could model the combinations interestingly

malgox: a tabletop game with a similar idea, but combined only to character creation: http://www.kickstart...from-monte-cook

malgox: also, you can probably see the influence of Binding of Isaac on my thinking, in so far as each new ability "reshapes" your existing ones

malgox: and literally changes your appearence

malgox: so, yeah

malgox: a guy can dream

malgox: get me in touch with a games designer and we'll see what we can do

and, also, a couple parting thoughts:

zigavivei: Tis guys kickstarter is interesting I just dont have too much background in tabletop

zigavivei: Well, the results

malgox: i really like Monte Cook

malgox: but you see how basic, yet deep the character creation idea is

zigavivei: yeah

malgox: if you modelled something like that on a computer... imagine what sort of interesting programming you could do

malgox: it really could be like alchemy

zigavivei: yeah

malgox: each trait is assigned certain modifiers, or whatever

malgox: but they'd combine in interesting ways

malgox: oh!

malgox: something kind of like this; that Gameboy game "Golden Sun"

zigavivei: never played it but i know what youre going at

malgox: in golden sun there are a bunch of "jinn"

malgox: you give them to people and their classes morph

malgox: sometimes surprisingly

malgox: they literally become different classes based on what "jinn" they carry

zigavivei: kinda like FF* and the Eidolon system

zigavivei: FF8

malgox: oh, is that how FF8 works?

zigavivei: You can equip Eidolons who determmine your stats

zigavivei: they level up along with you

zigavivei: and each one has a particular style

malgox: yeah--that's sweet

malgox: I like that idea

[Gormongous]

So, I have an idea for an "alchemic" skill tree system that I'm sure isn't exactly original, but I'm perplexed as to why it hasn't been used more often in games. Well, I can imagine it could be rife with imbalances and unforeseeable problems, but it still seems worth a try.

Basically, I'm disattisfied with how RPGs typically put you into a "class" than give you a bunch of linear paths to travel, all based on simply dumping points into confined categories.

I would propose a system where players choose from different descriptors to further color a base class. Instead, or perhaps in addition to, simply leveling up certain skills they'd instead choose ideas like "fire," "rage" or "bardsong" to modify the entire class. Hence, "alchemic," since you could choose different descriptors to end up with entirely different sorts of characters, not just distinguished by different skill-point allocations.

Sounds a lot like the way races in the Smallworld board games are built, in addition to Binding of Isaac like you mentioned. I'd love to see it implemented, but wouldn't it be incredibly design-intensive, since it requires devs to anticipate all the permutations? Or are you think of something like a slightly less restricted version of skill runes from Diablo III?

[I_smell]

Oh so it's like Super Scribblenauts.

Yeah I've been WAY interested in fusion and combining things recently. I'm dieing to start a game that's about taking 2 or 3 elements and fusing them together to make a new one. This is how spells work in Magicka- which I am DIEING TO PLAY but I don't have a PC that can play video games. Definately check out Magicka; it's not applied to levelling, but it is this concept applied to spell-casting.

I mentioned an RTS in the game ideas thread and my idea with it was basically that there was no currency, and you create new units by fusing your existing units together. So you could make big hulk-men, or giant spider creatures, or giant flying spider hulk-creatures by mashing all your unit types together.

Yea combining things rulz and is the best, everyone play Doodle God.