L.A. Noire

[Thrik]

I'm sure I read that being able to read the face and body expressions isn't the only way of progressing (without resorting to blind luck), and that there're also other things that can help you along like simply stacking up the evidence, comparing what people say, analysing clues, etc. After all, not every detective in the real world is necessarily a master of face reading. If you totally screw up an interview there have to be other approaches you can take.

I know what you're saying about whether or not they appeal to people's preconceptions, but then surely you're going to aim for realism rather than ignorance if making a game based around teaching people to read and outwit 'enemies' rather than just shoot them and doing loads of research into criminal psychology. Based on reviews and player reactions I'm thinking they've gone for the realistic approach and if people don't learn to pick up on the clues they'll have a harder time progressing in other ways.

To be honest though the preconceptions people have aren't that far off — they're just primitive. For example lots of people do break eye contact when lying; what matters is how they break it (looking to one side indicates creating something, looking to the other indicates recalling something from memory). Similarly, many kinds of shuffling and grasping of one's own body do indicate lying.

Really though even the experts admit it's not an absolute science and it's always possible to get it wrong, and some people are simply advantaged when it comes to reading people regardless of tuition. It's just all about reducing how much you get it wrong, and that in itself is something I find quite appealing about LA Noire if they do this aspect well. They've made a big song and dance about getting the rare opportunity to read people and accuse them of lying if need be, and I'll be very disappointed if they haven't done this properly — just like you will be I assume!

[ThunderPeel2001]

I'm sure I read that being able to read the face and body expressions isn't the only way of progressing (without resorting to blind luck), and that there're also other things that can help you along like simply stacking up the evidence, comparing what people say, analysing clues, etc. After all, not every detective in the real world is necessarily a master of face reading. If you totally screw up an interview there have to be other approaches you can take.

I know what you're saying about whether or not they appeal to people's preconceptions, but then surely you're going to aim for realism rather than ignorance if making a game based around teaching people to read and outwit 'enemies' rather than just shoot them and doing loads of research into criminal psychology. Based on reviews and player reactions I'm thinking they've gone for the realistic approach and if people don't learn to pick up on the clues they'll have a harder time progressing in other ways.

That sounds cool. I will definitely be checking this game out.

To be honest though the preconceptions people have aren't that far off — they're just primitive. For example lots of people do break eye contact when lying; what matters is how they break it (looking to one side indicates creating something, looking to the other indicates recalling something from memory). Similarly, many kinds of shuffling and grasping of one's own body do indicate lying.

The things you've mentioned indicate anxiety, not lying. Talking to a police detective is one very plausible reason for being anxious (I get anxious every time I go through airport security, even when I'm not smuggling bombs, drugs and uranium). There's no real way to judge whether someone is lying or not based on their body language, as proven by the fact that every single actor in the game... is lying.

[Thrik]

Well it can get infinitely detailed depending on what exactly we're talking about, at least so it seems from watching lots of Lie to Me! For example grasping certain parts of the body in certain ways can indicate guilt rather than anxiety — but what exactly is causing guilt in response to a certain question can be interpreted in all sorts of different ways. For example it could mean they're guilty of doing what you've accused them off, or it could be they feel guilty because they let the person go into that situation.

I don't know how sophisticated the game will be in this respect but I'm hoping for the best!

[ThunderPeel2001]

Well it can get infinitely detailed depending on what exactly we're talking about, at least so it seems from watching lots of Lie to Me!

I've never watched Lie to Me, but it isn't that like saying you know a lot about how murders are investigated from watching CSI? (Serious question, I'm just wondering.)

I don't know how sophisticated the game will be in this respect but I'm hoping for the best!

Me too.

[Thrik]

I suppose, but Lie to Me is fairly well respected for being a very informed program. It's a bit more like saying you have a basic grasp of law and crime investigation from watching Law and Order, which again prides itself on getting it right most of the time. CSI on the other hand openly goes completely beyond the realms of technical possibility; in fact, the last episode of CSI: Miami I saw featured a bloody ghost!

Basically the show goes to great lengths to explain the scientific reasoning behind identifying who's lying, which is after all the whole premise of the show. It squashes most misconceptions including those on the previous page, and goes well beyond that. As such they really do their research and indeed the main character and his organisation is based upon the guy featured throughout the article you posted on the last page. I'm hoping LA Noire has adopted a similar philosophy.

[toblix]

An interesting read, there's a lot of small and peculiar differences between the two versions of the game. The salient points would be the poorer framerate of the 360 version, with the PS3 version having faster streaming and a longer draw distance. Combine those with the game being spread out over three discs on the 360, and the PS3 version is clearly the one to have.

Looks like I picked the right one, then. I usually pick the 360 version of multi-platform releases, but since I'd been hearing it was developed for PS3 primarily (being a Sony exclusive at one point) I took a chance.

As for the framerate, it varies heavily on the PS3 as well. It's particularly noticeable in cut-scenes when they cut from shot to shot.

[Murdoc]

I just cant read people, I was doing alright but as the game goes on, I'm just not cluing into the system here. As soon as I get the right answers I figure everyone would display the same actions, but they don't... it's actualyl really difficult for me; is anyone else having this problem?

Im curious to know what the different outcomes are, but so far it feels like the game is just pushing me through regardless of what a bad detective I am. I have a bunch of evidence usually but it doesn't really amount to much, so questioning is the only way and I'm doing horrible on that, but the game finds a way for me to get my man...

Also, big picture thing, I've started to noticed certain details about each case but they haven't mentioned them, is it nothing or will that be the big shocker moment near the end? If it is, that will kinda suck.

[Sno]

Looks like I picked the right one, then. I usually pick the 360 version of multi-platform releases, but since I'd been hearing it was developed for PS3 primarily (being a Sony exclusive at one point) I took a chance.

The game also has an exclusive case on the PS3 version, i guess.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Basically the show goes to great lengths to explain the scientific reasoning behind identifying who's lying, which is after all the whole premise of the show. It squashes most misconceptions including those on the previous page, and goes well beyond that. As such they really do their research and indeed the main character and his organisation is based upon the guy featured throughout the article you posted on the last page. I'm hoping LA Noire has adopted a similar philosophy.

Interesting! I might have to check that out then. I hope LA Noire is accurate, too.

[juv3nal]

I just cant read people, I was doing alright but as the game goes on, I'm just not cluing into the system here. As soon as I get the right answers I figure everyone would display the same actions, but they don't... it's actualyl really difficult for me; is anyone else having this problem?

As for reading people, the "tells" do seem to get subtler as the game progresses...it helps to

a) turn off subtitles if you have them on (if you're reading text you're not watching faces)

and

watch them for a longer period of time because sometimes the tell only slips out after you stare at them for a while.

Also, there are a few exceptional people who look completely calm while lying. In those cases, I think you're supposed to be able to figure out just by the evidence you've got whether to doubt (if the evidence you have goes against them, but is all circumstantial) or accuse them of lying (if something you've got directly contradicts what they said).

but the game finds a way for me to get my man...

I don't think this is much of a spoiler, but...

The game will find a way for you to get a man, but it might not be the right one. One of the themes of the game is corruption and how the brass is frequently more concerned with closing cases than making sure the right person got put away. The game will let you progress to the next case even if you end up charging the wrong person.

[Murdoc]

Thanks juv....

I thought that's whats going on so far...

I'm locking up people because they are suspicious then do something crazy suspicious, but the evidence is flimsy and there's clearly a conspiracy going on, I just never prove it, so I'm pretty sure I'm locking up innocent or semi innocent people.

[toblix]

I was just promoted to vice, and got ten street crimes before I was able to make my way to the first crime scene. With almost clockwork-like precision, every time I started to get close, the radio would crackle about gunshots fired somewhere, and I would hit the sirens and make a u-turn. Without failure, the location of the street crime would be on the other side of town (I didn't really check the map, but that's what it felt like, anyway.)

I've done almost half of them now, and from what they've been like so far (chasing and shooting men), I think 40 of them is about right for the whole game.

[Sno]

I was just promoted to vice, and got ten street crimes before I was able to make my way to the first crime scene. With almost clockwork-like precision, every time I started to get close, the radio would crackle about gunshots fired somewhere, and I would hit the sirens and make a u-turn. Without failure, the location of the street crime would be on the other side of town (I didn't really check the map, but that's what it felt like, anyway.)

I've done almost half of them now, and from what they've been like so far (chasing and shooting men), I think 40 of them is about right for the whole game.

I'll say again, i don't think you should bother with the side missions in this game, and i think you should abuse the fast travel option.

If you really want to do all those side-missions, there's a dedicated free-roam mode in the cases sub-menu on the game's front-end.

[toblix]

It wasn't really annoyed by it, rather I thought it was slightly funny. I mean, I could just ignore them, right? So far they've been pretty fast and easy, and gives me XP, and knowing there's only 40 of them in all, I'd rather do them over the course of the game, than during free roam.

[Murdoc]

MEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Just finished homicide...

Ok so I was locking up innocent people, that's alright, but the one clue I found out really early on turned out to be the big case solver, but the game never allowed me to follow up on it. Is that because I was doing shotty police work in the game or the game just didn't want me to solve the crime so early? There was a consitent string of women at bars, but they always mentioned a temp bar tender, I really wanted to follow up on that, but my characters didn't once notice.

[Sno]

MEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Just finished homicide...

Ok so I was locking up innocent people, that's alright, but the one clue I found out really early on turned out to be the big case solver, but the game never allowed me to follow up on it. Is that because I was doing shotty police work in the game or the game just didn't want me to solve the crime so early? There was a consitent string of women at bars, but they always mentioned a temp bar tender, I really wanted to follow up on that, but my characters didn't once notice.

I caught that too when i played, and i feel like that's the only time the game does that, making me feel as if i'm waiting for the story to catch up with me. The whole serial killer arc is honestly just very odd and disconnected from the rest of the game, and when i had finished the game, i felt like it was the weakest part. It's really the only part of the game that doesn't at all tie back into the main story thread, it could almost just have not been there. It's weird.

[ThunderPeel2001]

MEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Hmm! More positive noises from players...

[Murdoc]

Hehehe, don't take it the wrong way, it's a good game, with a little bit of work it'd be a great game and I the one thing that now bothers me is at it's foundational level it is a game and gets gamey every so often.

I don't know why I can accept that in classic lucas art adventures but then lament about it in LA Noire... doesn't seem fair, but all the same, I think my above issue still stands strong.

[Forbin]

Just finished. Last mission had me thinking about that Giant Bomb "All units" compilation.

[Thrik]

Quite an intriguing video of a real detective giving the game a spin and commenting on its authenticity:

http://www.g4tv.com/videos/53057/a-real-detective-plays-la-noire/?quality=hd

Seeing regular gameplay like that certainly increases my desire to get this after I've finished other games I've been playing got like a year such as Red Dead Redemption .

[toblix]

Whilst I'm really loving this game, and can't wait to get home and solve some more murder mystery, I gotta say: the interview stuff is terrible. Sometimes it's Phoenix Wright style – he says "I left at eleven" but you have testimony he left at ten; sometimes the overacting cycle of "bite lips, shift eyes, swallow gallon of spit" makes it a 50/50 "doubt or lie" gamble; usually you think you've got it, and then Phelps just explodes in rage and accuses the person of murdering everyone. It's unpredictable and impossible to get right, no matter how good you are. They're definitely on to something though, and I hope they figure out how to make it depend more on skill and less on pure chance. I would like to have access to more clues, and try to connect them and catch the lies that way, sort of like an advanced Phoenix Wright, but that would probably kill the mass-appeal.

[Sno]

Unpredictable? All about chance? I really, really don't agree, I had like an 80% success rate with the questions my first time through the game. (People who haven't played the game - I know this because it tells you at the end of each case.)

I mean, and not realizing that the number of intuition points resets between cases, i didn't even take advantage of the intuition system like i should have.

The doubt/lie choice isn't a gamble, if you have evidence, accuse them of lying. Even then, if you're not completely sure what direction phelps will take it in, prod with the lie accusation, since you can back out of that, and alright... I do think that is some weak design, sometimes having to fudge the game systems because it hasn't properly established for you an implicit understanding of where Phelps is leading the conversation.

I mean, but i think you're giving Phoenix Wright too much credit here, i have played all of those games, and they are filled with bizarre left-field leaps of logic. (Some of those games more than others, i've definitely played cases in that series where i had the whole thing figured out like twenty minutes in, which isn't any good either.)

I think the difference is that if you get something wrong in that game, the game stops until you get it right. Here, if you screw up, the game doesn't give you a second chance, it makes you live with your mistake and find other avenues of investigation. That smarmy asshole sitting in front of you beat you. It's frustrating and completely awesome.

[toblix]

Unpredictable? All about chance? I really, really don't agree

Maybe I should've been more clear. I don't think it's all about chance, I just feel like it's way more than it should be. I get most of the questions right as well, but I feel more like a gamerz with experience in gaming systems than a sharp-as-a-tack police detective.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Someone shared this with me today...

LCZHzOpzsws

I still haven't played the game, but I did try to buy it today (out of sheer boredom and loneliness): Sold out!

If you want to read about what sort of tactics real detectives use on suspects, how they try to get them to admit to things, and what they really look out for in terms of guilt: Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets by David Simon has a chapter dedicated to it.

Edit: That detective sounds very much like the ones portrayed in Simon's book

Edit edit: A bit of spin, for sure, and there were lots of caveats to what he said (I'm pretty sure they edited it to make it sound like the guy pulling a shotgun on the cops was commonplace, when basic logic will tell you it's not), but it makes me want to play the game.

Edited May 30, 2011 by ThunderPeel2001

[ThunderPeel2001]

What's the "A Slip Of The Tongue" DLC thing? Is it available separately? Apparently if I order LA Noire from Play.com I get that included free. Worth it?

Edit: Ooh. And there's another bit of DLC from other retailers: "The Naked City" AND "The Badge Pursuit Challenge" if I order it from Game UK. Hmm.

I'll probably end up buying all the DLC eventually (I have a feeling I'm going to really love this game), so maybe it's best to get two now and save myself some money in the long run?

Edited May 30, 2011 by ThunderPeel2001