GOTY.CX 2009

[SoulChicken]

I was wondering if the thumbs might do this for this year, mainly because the site looks so pretty. I'll have a little guess at the top picks

Chris - Torchlight

Jake - Uncharted 2 (only game played)

Nick - Rogue Warrior

Seriously though, this would be splendid!

[miffy495]

Grah! Why do people keep recreating existing threads?

[SoulChicken]

I sorry!

[SoulChicken]

I really just wanted to make the Rogue Warrior joke anyway.

[OssK]

But you were wrong, DA:O is Chirs's Goty

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26234/Gamasutras_Best_Of_2009_Top_5_PC_Games.php

[Garple]

But you were wrong, DA:O is Chirs's Goty

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/26234/Gamasutras_Best_Of_2009_Top_5_PC_Games.php

That's fucked up. Torchlight is to Dragon Age what 5th grade is to kindergarten.

[OssK]

That's fucked up. Torchlight is to Dragon Age what 5th grade is to kindergarten.

It might also be a question of tastes but after all the enthusiasm Chris displayed towards torchlight I was pretty stuned to realize it wasn't first.

But he's probably been playing DA:O a lot if it's his goty.

Or maybe he'd be ashamed to but a non AAA as his goty on gamasutra ;P

I was reminded though that there is a lot he hasn't been telling us about his tastes since the podcast went silent.

Well, he might also have realized that Torchlight is a very compulsory experience rather than a genuine intriguing game to explore (a critique that was palpable in the way he said "I've played soooooooo much of that game it's ridiculous" a certain number of times).

[Garple]

Well, he might also have realized that Torchlight is a very compulsory experience rather than a genuine intriguing game to explore

I would argue that the same could easily be said of Dragon Age (though I know few would agree).

[OssK]

I would argue that the same could easily be said of Dragon Age (though I know few would agree).

Well, the intrinsic nature of a game experience is not really subjective per se. It can be perceived as such or such but has certain qualities to it that reveal the intent and inner workings of a game.

For instance, I'd say that a game that generates content in one of a few forms (worlds) using a few assets in all is more overtly tuned for a grinding experience than a very linear one. I would not tire of going through the dungeons of Torchlight but I assure you that going through every half life game with the subtitles on was sometimes tiring.

Therefore Diablo or Torchlight (or another game I bought on iPhone called Defender Chronicles) can be pointed to as grindfests whereas the infamous cock sucking Modern Warfare is clearly not intended to be one. I wouldn't really know about DA : O I have only played half an hour of it.

[Garple]

I think I get what you mean. But to me, the Dragon Age is sort of all about grinding for content. Players want to beat all the difficult combat encounters so they can get to all of the story stuff and experience more of the elements that make up the world (I assume). But that stuff is so shallow that it ends up being beside the point, even though it is the point. The hazy memories you have of reading Sword of Shannara when you were 14 make the story and setting of Dragon Age obsolete. In fact, looking at the cover of a fantasy novel in Barnes and Noble would make the story and setting of Dragon Age obsolete.

It could be that I'm just destined not to like the game, but it reminds me of being 15 and loving progressive rock because I thought more complex = better, without question.

[OssK]

I think I get what you mean. But to me, the Dragon Age is sort of all about grinding for content. Players want to beat all the difficult combat encounters so they can get to all of the story stuff and experience more of the elements that make up the world (I assume). But that stuff is so shallow that it ends up being beside the point, even though it is the point. The hazy memories you have of reading Sword of Shannara when you were 14 make the story and setting of Dragon Age obsolete. In fact, looking at the cover of a fantasy novel in Barnes and Noble would make the story and setting of Dragon Age obsolete.

It could be that I'm just destined not to like the game, but it reminds me of being 15 and loving progressive rock because I thought more complex = better, without question.

That's the name of the next one : Dragon Age: Obsolete ?

Well, we should agree on what we call grinding and then maybe that'd help us reach a consensus : to me it means doing the same thing over and over again in order to atain something that is in reach (not in sight per se) but locked. For example, a merchant would not sell you this or this item until you have the required amount of gold. On the other hand there are a few billion randomly generated axes that you could find, they are in reach in the way that you could wear them but they are kept away from you.

So grinding is either doing the same thing to obtain an hidden item or doing the same thing to obtain enough change to get the item/narration/cutscene/access etc.

I would not say that it's triggered by the game, rather that the game encourages a repetitive behavior in order to deliver some content.

There, so is DA:Obsolete a linear experience in the long term or does it have static loops at some point that you have to go through several times ?

[Garple]

Basically, all I'm saying is: it seems like people are playing the game because they know it contains a whole bunch of stuff to see. But, in my opinion the stuff is all kind of dumb and I haven't seen anyone defend it on an aesthetic or intellectual level, so I kind of assume it's a compulsory activity. They just want to find all the content because they know it's there and, you never know, they just might be entertained by some of it.

[Chris]

Basically, all I'm saying is: it seems like people are playing the game because they know it contains a whole bunch of stuff to see. But, in my opinion the stuff is all kind of dumb and I haven't seen anyone defend it on an aesthetic or intellectual level, so I kind of assume it's a compulsory activity. They just want to find all the content because they know it's there and, you never know, they just might be entertained by some of it.

I'm playing it because I genuinely enjoy the character interaction and situations. I think those things are very well crafted compared to the great majority of video games. Dragon Age doesn't feel like a grindy game at all to me. It takes me a relatively long time to level compared to many games, most equipment is fairly mundane, and I don't even really bother to look at my quest screen to grind through quests. I just go to different places and talk to people and do stuff, and I'll end up moving through quest lines as a result. I like how de-emphasized the whole grinding aspect of this game is compared to most RPGs I've played. I put it on "Easy," which might influence that. Grinding might be more necessary on harder difficulty levels. But the way I'm playing it, I feel pretty much free to just go wherever I want to and pursue whichever goal seems most interesting at the time.

[Sombre]

Furthermore, I chose "Surprise me" at the brothel, and I was left with "Insertion tool" and "Excavation tool", which was a giant pair of plyers.

Game of the year, every year.

[Moelman]

I'm playing it because I genuinely enjoy the character interaction and situations. I think those things are very well crafted compared to the great majority of video games. Dragon Age doesn't feel like a grindy game at all to me. It takes me a relatively long time to level compared to many games, most equipment is fairly mundane, and I don't even really bother to look at my quest screen to grind through quests. I just go to different places and talk to people and do stuff, and I'll end up moving through quest lines as a result. I like how de-emphasized the whole grinding aspect of this game is compared to most RPGs I've played. I put it on "Easy," which might influence that. Grinding might be more necessary on harder difficulty levels. But the way I'm playing it, I feel pretty much free to just go wherever I want to and pursue whichever goal seems most interesting at the time.

I played the game mostly on Normal except if a fight was too frustratingly difficult when it shouldn't be, then I would swap to easy and back. I would not say the game ever felt like a grind, obviously there was more dying on normal but I didn't go out of my way to kill dudes to level up more, which would be pointless anyways since the enemies scale to your level. I will be playing on easy though in any subsequent playthroughs as I just think it would be overall more enjoyable. I stuck to normal as much as I could (especially for boss fights) because I'm stubborn that way but with this game, while I enjoy the combat very much and I love how much you can micromanage it, I don't like dying and I would probably recommend easy unless you're a hardcore oldschool RPG person (I kind of am).

[Garple]

To be fair, I guess I'm using the term "grinding" in a slightly different way than that in which it is usually used. I'm not so much saying you have to level up a lot to continue...but to me, just continuing to play the game and fight the battles feels like a form of grinding. That's probably just down to my personal disdain for the game though.

[James]

Are you saying that, when you actually think about it, pretty much all your interactions with the game are a chore, and that you're only playing for some phantom pay-off that you never actually receive? I've never played Dragon Age, but I've certainly felt like that about other things, and I can see someone describing it as a grind. When the whole thing seems very mechanical and empty. I had that pretty badly with the latest Prince of Persia.

Not to put words in your mouth or anything, of course.

[Moelman]

I think the pay off to continuing to do all the battles is great story progression and character interactions. There is a reason for (almost) all of the combat, either you are trying to get somewhere, or some other story-related element. The "what happens next" feeling for both the overall story and individual NPC stories is a lot of what kept me motivated.

[Sombre]

I think the pay off to continuing to do all the battles is great story progression and character interactions. There is a reason for (almost) all of the combat, either you are trying to get somewhere, or some other story-related element. The "what happens next" feeling for both the overall story and individual NPC stories is a lot of what kept me motivated.

Or "How I'm failing my University Degree" syndrome.

[OssK]

Are you saying that, when you actually think about it, pretty much all your interactions with the game are a chore, and that you're only playing for some phantom pay-off that you never actually receive? I've never played Dragon Age, but I've certainly felt like that about other things, and I can see someone describing it as a grind. When the whole thing seems very mechanical and empty. I had that pretty badly with the latest Prince of Persia.

The POP2K8 (EA Games) one ?

What kept me going in that game was nothing, it was the strangest thing, I literally hated the prince who felt like the dumbest fuck ever, the gameplay was as fucking dumb as it gets to the point that it just was a big quick time event and the combats were full of shit (quite literally too as you can tell by the way the enemies look).

So yeah, eye candy ? Loving the pops for 20 years ? Liking Elika ? I really do not know but I was pretty baffled that I kept coming back to it.

[James]

Yeah, I finished that dumb game. I'm not entirely sure why. I guess it wasn't especially difficult, and there were some interesting things about it, but ultimately they didn't make it a good game. Even the visuals were marred for me by the fact that the world itself was so lifeless and utilitarian. I guess there are loads of platformers where little attempt is made to disguise the fact that all you're doing is navigating a series of geometric shapes arranged for optimal traversal challenges (you could accuse the original Prince of Persia of that, and I loved that game), but for some reason it really grated in this instance. Almost all of that game was something of a chore to me, yet I still persevered, I guess because some part of me thought there was something waiting for me at the other end, even if it was just a sense of accomplishment or something.

[Garple]

Are you saying that, when you actually think about it, pretty much all your interactions with the game are a chore, and that you're only playing for some phantom pay-off that you never actually receive? I've never played Dragon Age, but I've certainly felt like that about other things, and I can see someone describing it as a grind. When the whole thing seems very mechanical and empty. I had that pretty badly with the latest Prince of Persia.

Not to put words in your mouth or anything, of course.

Basically, yeah. When I was playing, I kept waiting for it to get really interesting and, for me, it never did. If anything, it got less interesting the more I learned about the world in which it takes place.

I think the pay off to continuing to do all the battles is great story progression and character interactions. There is a reason for (almost) all of the combat, either you are trying to get somewhere, or some other story-related element.

That's kind of my point. Combat is the major mechanical "game" part of the game, but it seems like everybody's mostly playing for the story stuff. I see that as a form of grinding. Any time combat is little more than a means to an end, I sort of see it as grinding. Because it sounds like you would enjoy the game more if there were no combat or there were less of it."

[SoulChicken]

It's not grinding, I didn't grind once in that game. Pretty much all the battles happened as part of the story, maybe I got ambushed a couple of times travelling. I never went looking for battles solely to get more xp, which is necessary in a lot of RPGs, especially Japanese one. That's grinding.

If the battle system was shit it wouldn't matter how good the story was but the battles become really fun. I started out on easy and by that time they had adjusted difficulty so it wasn't as brutal as Mr Breckon mentioned. It progressed brilliantly, once I remembered how to play this game, I felt more confident. I played on easy for my first two recruitment drives and then I bumped up the difficulty to normal all the way until the deep roads (my last pre-landsmeet quest). By that time I really had a grasp of the battle system and I had a broad arsenal of talents. Which made me feel pretty powerful. Especially with my wizard, this game did an amazing job of making the wizards feel powerful and useful, probably better than any other game I've played. At which point I did the unthinkable and bumped it up to hard!

Fighting all the darkspawn at this point in the game was so enjoyable because I felt powerful and clever. I think the game does a great job of giving the player that sense of empowerment as they progress.

I mention this because I was surprised how much I enjoyed the battle system, I paused a lot and it became really tactical. Also every battle felt like part of the plot and connected me more to my characters. I was so proud of them when they did their jobs well! I think the combat was a crucial part in building those relationships.

If you don't like that kind of play, then that would feel like a grind but all that means is you dont like that kind of rpg combat. There was no grinding (in the RPG sense) in Dragon Age, which I think was pretty remarkable. I was not a big fan of rpg combat either going into the game but Dragon Age really did win me over in that respect.

After I finished I went on to play Mass Effect, obviously choosing the Wizard (Adept). Its been funny because I've been playing it the same way I did Dragon Age, although I feel a lot less in total control. It's like I make suggestions to my party members, which is an interesting dynamic also. In that game you definitely can grind, a lot of the side missions are pretty similar and offer little narrative flow. but even in that game you don't really have to. If you don't like the combat you can play on easy and stick to the main planets and do just fine and dandy.

I'm glad you liked Dragon Age Chris, I thought that it turned out that that original playthrough of the underclass Dwarf origin you talked about way back was alot more representative of the game than anything in the marketing.

I did find that the gift giving part of it reminded me of Dead Or Alive Beach Volleyball.

[Erkki]

Am I the only one who enjoyed the last PoP game? Certainly it had flaws, but I thought it was a good game. At least I liked it more than Warrior Within.

[miffy495]

I didn't hate it. The only thing that really pissed me off was the non-ending. It wasn't a bad game by any means, just quite average. I think all the hate is just because people expected so much more from the PoP name. Not sure why, honestly. Of the seven Prince of Persia games that have come out (to my knowledge: PoP, PoP 2, PoP3D, PoP:SoT, PoP:WW, PoP:TT, PoP2008) only the original and Sands of Time have been amazing, must play experiences. The others have been at best pretty good and at worst abysmal. I count PoP2008 as "pretty good," myself. Within the series, it's actually one of the better games, it just can't come near the lofty heights set by SoT.