Alex Posted June 29, 2004 I'm a good craftsman but a poor artist. After those cats you drew? Shut the hell up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted June 29, 2004 I'm not saying that art and craft are the same things, I'm saying they are synonymous. At least, that's what Dictionary.com says. In fact, I was trying to explain that explaining the difference could be difficult since they're in fact synonyms. Sorry. But as for the kernel of the discussion (as far as I'm concerned, at least), if we disregard the craft term, is there a form of art that doesn't require some degree of mastering a skill? That's supposed to be my point, that there isn't one. So if you can mention one, I'm likely to surrender. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Intrepid Homoludens Posted June 29, 2004 Craft is basically mastery of skill and technique. It's ultimately not gravely required in art making, but it can greatly augment it. Suffice it to say that craft can be vital in the particular and overall quality of the end product. Yes, but now we can do it all over again here like it was the first time! Do you feel the excitement?! Um........no. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hermes Posted June 29, 2004 I'm not saying that art and craft are the same things, I'm saying they are synonymous. At least, that's what Dictionary.com says. In fact, I was trying to explain that explaining the difference could be difficult since they're in fact synonyms. Sorry. I know I'm being an arse now - but just for the nittpicking of it. If you are saying art and craft are different, then they can't be synonymous. As of being the same meaning and all..... On dictionary.com I think what they mean is more in the sense of "the art of kicking butt = the craft of kicking butt".... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris Posted June 30, 2004 And now it's my turn to be a nitpicky arse... You can't really cite dictionary.com as if it is a dictionary--it's not. It just references a bunch of other dictionaries. If you quite the "dictionary.com definition", people won't know which you mean because it generally provides a bunch. Just say "American Heritage" or "Mirriam-Webster" or whatever, since the website lists the source. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted June 30, 2004 Just say "American Heritage" or "Mirriam-Webster" or whatever, since the website lists the source. Thanks for the tip. I wasn't aware it was just a meta-dictionary. But since word-nitpicking is boring, let's get back to the topic somewhat. New question*: Name a game you consider, and explain why. I consider Riven art, because, in addition to being a fun puzzle game, it's beautiful and the sounds and visuals create a, for me, totally immersive experience that's like being there. *I know it's technically not a question Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHoatzin Posted June 30, 2004 I consider Riven art, because, in addition to being a fun puzzle game, it's beautiful and the sounds and visuals create a, for me, totally immersive experience that's like being there.Being pretty is not enough to qualify something as a work of art. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted June 30, 2004 Being pretty is not enough to qualify something as a work of art. I agree, but what's your point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Intrepid Homoludens Posted June 30, 2004 I consider ICO to be a work of art. In addition to the visually exquisite, impressionistic world it creates for the viewer, there is a transcendent spiritual element involved that nearly all other games lack, the entire experience resonates of sheer beauty and conveyance beyond the conventional interactivity and technical qualities of 'gaming'. ICO is the very first game I played where I travelled beyond 'gaming'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted June 30, 2004 I looked that up on Mobygames and it looked kind of neat. Is the description "Prince of Persia meets Myst" accurate? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Posted July 1, 2004 god i hate it when people go on about myst (mainly mac users). It's such an over-rated example of quantity over quality. All very pretty but nothing else going for it. Why anyone would feel entranced by a £35 slide show sprinkled with some seriously b-grade acting is beyond me. Also while we're on the subject: Myst. Worst. Ending. Ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Intrepid Homoludens Posted July 1, 2004 I looked that up on Mobygames and it looked kind of neat. Is the description "Prince of Persia meets Myst" accurate? Eiw. Who the hell said that? That actually sounds.......EIW! [cringes] god i hate it when people go on about myst (mainly mac users). It's such an over-rated example of quantity over quality. All very pretty but nothing else going for it. Why anyone would feel entranced by a £35 slide show sprinkled with some seriously b-grade acting is beyond me.Also while we're on the subject: Myst. Worst. Ending. Ever. Not to mention that it was conceived and launched during the height of the....[shudders].....New Age trend. Let's face it, Myst was a product of fashion. Many of its whores were crystal rubbing, Navajo security blanket holding, Yanni music orgasmic geeks who probably owned 17 cats and spent 200 dollars on an ounce of rare herbal tea. I did, however, love playing realMyst because it was in real time 3D. Poking around the various Ages without fear of getting fragged was fun for a while. Seriously, though, the game looked disgustingly beautiful in real time 3D! Okay, okay, I'll admit it. I hung around in the bonus Age of Rime and meditated on the whales. It was that jawdropping, so STFU! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OftenK Posted July 1, 2004 Okay, okay, I'll admit it. I hung around in the bonus Age of Rime and meditated on the whales. It was that jawdropping, so STFU! Hahahaha. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spaceship789 Posted July 1, 2004 I'm happy to concede that people can call whatever they want art. I like big colourful animation (Disney/Pixar/Ghibli/etc), but animation isn't what we called 'art' in centuries past. So by the same token, I let other people use 'art' to call whatever they like. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted July 1, 2004 god i hate it when people go on about myst And then... It's such an over-rated example of quantity over quality. All very pretty but nothing else going for it. Why anyone would feel entranced by a £35 slide show sprinkled with some seriously b-grade acting is beyond me.Also while we're on the subject: Myst. Worst. Ending. Ever. You just went on about Myst. Gotcha! Seriously, though, I understand why lots of people don't like the Myst games, but I don't understand why lots of people don't understand why other people like them. I don't like flight sims or sports games, but I can understand why other people do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHoatzin Posted July 1, 2004 I don't like flight sims or sports games, but I can understand why other people do.... That would be because they're fucking stupid. That attitude solves all problems, always! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted July 1, 2004 ICO, is that the dolphin game where you swim around as a Dolphin doing nothing in particular? That game is fucking awesome... as long as you play it when seriously, seriously doped up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Intrepid Homoludens Posted July 1, 2004 Trep Yufster Wrong, 'it' girl. ICO is about a horny headed boy who rescues a magical princess from a bad witch's castle. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Posted July 1, 2004 Yeah, you're thinking of Echo the Dolphin, which was cack and everyone hated. I remember when i bought that game for my megadrive and tried to sell it at this exchange store. The guy told me that what with the number of copies he'd bought back already, I would have to pay him to take it away in order to stop his business collapsing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Salka Posted July 1, 2004 I realized that right after I posted but IE wasn't going to let me go back and change it. I saw 'whales' and 'spiritual' up there somewhere, and just assumed... Toblix: I assume people don't like Myst for the same reason as people don't like 7th Guest. Both games were absolutely crap as regards gameplay, but they were still cool back then. If you played 7th Guest now, you wouldn't have that same feeling of jaw-dropping awe that you would have playing it back in... 1993? People forget how exciting that soundtrack was, and those real actors on those amazing 3D backgrounds, and how amazing the experience was back then. It's all primitive stuff now. On the other hand there are people that saw past the pretties and saw the lack of gameplay and just hated them because they were, essentially, crap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alex Posted July 2, 2004 7th Guest was at least better than it's sequal: The 11th Hour. Now that was baaaaaad Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toblix Posted July 2, 2004 Some day I have to learn not to mention Myst to other people, ever. But, a point to note is that I still find the original Myst very fun and interesting, even with the outdated graphics it now sports. So either it's something other than the graphics, or I like crap. Wouldn't be the first time I liked crap, mind you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
