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Rob Zacny

Three Moves Ahead Episode 486: The Lion in Winter

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Three Moves Ahead 486:

Three Moves Ahead 486


Lion in Winter
It's Christmas at the Plantagenets as Rob and Troy watch the superb Lion in Winter and the less superb Becket. What do these movies have to say about history and politics, and is any of it related to historical fact? How good is Hepburn? What is O'Toole doing across these two films?

The Lion in Winter, Becket

 

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I have not listened to the podcast yet but I can't wait to share the most important fact about this movie.

 

I've watched it this year when it was mentioned in a 3MA podcast (probably Patreon Special but I'm not sure). My mother tongue is Russian and when I've looked for it I saw a release with a Soviet dub made back at the time of release when this movie was running in soviet cinemas. It sounded great, back then Soviets imported few movies and when they did they tried to localize them well. 

 

Then I did a little research and discovered that several scenes in the movie were heavily censored in an interesting way. There's a point when Philip, king of France, talks to Henry, king of England, about his son Richard, later known as Lionheart. Philip asks what would Henry think of "sodomy| and describes how Richard made some blatant suggestions on the matter. Richard is eavesdropping on the conversation and jumps out to deny the accusation. In the Soviet dub, there's none of it. Instead, Philip talks about Richard planning a murder of Henry, asking Philip if he wants to avenge his father, and there's a complex story about Richard planning on informing Philip on a specific date of Henry's hunt so that Philip could "accidentally" shoot him. It felt very natural, maybe Henry was a little too calm hearing that his son was planning his murder.

 

The point is, the rivalry between Henry and Louis VII isn't really even mentioned in the movie. I imagine that some soviet movie people had decided they want to run this movie but there's a problem of some forbidden themes in it. And they've gathered some historians and writers to invent a whole subplot to replace homosexuality with patricide.

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22 hours ago, ilitarist said:

I have not listened to the podcast yet but I can't wait to share the most important fact about this movie.

 

I've watched it this year when it was mentioned in a 3MA podcast (probably Patreon Special but I'm not sure). My mother tongue is Russian and when I've looked for it I saw a release with a Soviet dub made back at the time of release when this movie was running in soviet cinemas. It sounded great, back then Soviets imported few movies and when they did they tried to localize them well. 

 

Then I did a little research and discovered that several scenes in the movie were heavily censored in an interesting way. There's a point when Philip, king of France, talks to Henry, king of England, about his son Richard, later known as Lionheart. Philip asks what would Henry think of "sodomy| and describes how Richard made some blatant suggestions on the matter. Richard is eavesdropping on the conversation and jumps out to deny the accusation. In the Soviet dub, there's none of it. Instead, Philip talks about Richard planning a murder of Henry, asking Philip if he wants to avenge his father, and there's a complex story about Richard planning on informing Philip on a specific date of Henry's hunt so that Philip could "accidentally" shoot him. It felt very natural, maybe Henry was a little too calm hearing that his son was planning his murder.

 

The point is, the rivalry between Henry and Louis VII isn't really even mentioned in the movie. I imagine that some soviet movie people had decided they want to run this movie but there's a problem of some forbidden themes in it. And they've gathered some historians and writers to invent a whole subplot to replace homosexuality with patricide.

 

Really? That is very interesting. This reminded me of the Blood release that Russia got where they changed Caleb into Lenin, did some Russian VA and plastered the hammer and sickle everywhere (even on the weapons). I suppose that censorship is most interesting when the product is changed by the addition of new content.

 

Oh, by the way ilitarist, I was taken aback when you said that your mother tongue is Russian. I know some Russians in real life and on the web and it isn't very hard to notice that they aren't native English speakers and writers, mainly for the lack or improper use of articles, which is also something that I notice when playing Russian (and some other Eastern European games) games that were localized into English. Hell, even Орел и Решка's english subtitles have this problem. So, what I'm trying to say is that you write quite well in English. Well done. 

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Thank you! Poor Russian localization of basically everything is probably a biggest reason I've learned English when I was a kid. And yes, English is a big problem in Russian speaking countries. Or maybe it's that Eastern Europe people aren't content to stay in the Russian part of the internet. 

 

I'm pretty sure that Blood localization was unnoficial product but there were many games like Gorky-17 that were released with a reinterpreted story. Or, say, that old Larry adult quest replaced copy protection with test on old Soviet movies to check if you're old enough. So I don't think it was done for the sake of censorship in games. Usually pirates just had their fun or localizers thought they can write a better story.

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On 2019-12-29 at 11:57 AM, ilitarist said:

I have not listened to the podcast yet but I can't wait to share the most important fact about this movie.

 

I've watched it this year when it was mentioned in a 3MA podcast (probably Patreon Special but I'm not sure). My mother tongue is Russian and when I've looked for it I saw a release with a Soviet dub made back at the time of release when this movie was running in soviet cinemas. It sounded great, back then Soviets imported few movies and when they did they tried to localize them well. 

 

Then I did a little research and discovered that several scenes in the movie were heavily censored in an interesting way. There's a point when Philip, king of France, talks to Henry, king of England, about his son Richard, later known as Lionheart. Philip asks what would Henry think of "sodomy| and describes how Richard made some blatant suggestions on the matter. Richard is eavesdropping on the conversation and jumps out to deny the accusation. In the Soviet dub, there's none of it. Instead, Philip talks about Richard planning a murder of Henry, asking Philip if he wants to avenge his father, and there's a complex story about Richard planning on informing Philip on a specific date of Henry's hunt so that Philip could "accidentally" shoot him. It felt very natural, maybe Henry was a little too calm hearing that his son was planning his murder.

 

The point is, the rivalry between Henry and Louis VII isn't really even mentioned in the movie. I imagine that some soviet movie people had decided they want to run this movie but there's a problem of some forbidden themes in it. And they've gathered some historians and writers to invent a whole subplot to replace homosexuality with patricide.

 

That's interesting, thanks for sharing that Ilitarist.

 

Really enjoyed this episode, having recently read a book on the Plantagenets (Dan Jones' book, highly recommend it if you're looking for a basic narrative history). I've been eyeing Becket on Hoopla for a while but it sounds like I really need to seek out The Lion in Winter. 

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Already listened to this episode thrice. This and the Black hack down episodes are among my favorites. I find Rob and Troy's take on historical movies to be quite interesting and thought provoking.

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