Rob Zacny

Episode 198: The Kessel Run

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Rowan Kaiser rejoins Rob and Bruce to talk about War in the East, while Bruce has been busy with the Don to the Danube expansion. Rowan has thoughts about approaching the hardest of the hardcore wargames from a newcomer's perspective, while Rob is laboring under the most epic misconception in 3MA history. Bruce is a little bit disappointed in the new scenarios, and he and Rob discuss their ideal Eastern front scenarios. Then the panel talk about Matrix prices, and what they mean for the genre.

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Bruce's War in the East writings

Rowan on War in the East

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The Unity of Command Red Turn DLC is out. Please cover it in a 3MA podcast. I've been a beta-tester, so I could already play a couple of scenarios before release. It's great!

http://unityofcommand.net/

Will listen and comment to the WitE podcast as well, because the other ones that covered it were great.

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Really enjoyed this episode, I could listen to Bruce talk authoritatively about Operation Barbarossa all day long - with his Quarter to Three Game Diaries blending game and history and cold hard analysis all in one sweep. War in the East is a monster of a game, but it layers the monstrosity, so that you only peel back as much as you can take. Whilst not as accessible as Unity of Command, it can still deliver a lighter operational game, than the leaden tables of "drill down" detail imply.

A game that could straddle the position between the accessibility that Unity of Command holds, and the OCD depths of War in the East, would be Victor Reijkersz' Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue. It's got enough weight behind it, and it's steeped in history, but it is also fairly easy to grasp.

I wish the world was big enough for a dedicated PC wargaming podcast to discuss these games all the time, 3MA really is about the only podcast willing to tackle these sort of games... although it has to be said since Unity of Command hit Steam, it did get some wider exposure.

Looking forward to more, more, more - and the 200th episode! Must be considered a major milestone in 3MA's success story, surely?!

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A game that could straddle the position between the accessibility that Unity of Command holds, and the OCD depths of War in the East, would be Victor Reijkersz' Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue. It's got enough weight behind it, and it's steeped in history, but it is also fairly easy to grasp.

Thanks for the recommendation. Tried out WitE, but so far it has been too complicated for me. Trying to get into really complex hardcore strategy games, but haven't managed this one so far. I've tried out the first game by Victor Reijkersz, People's Tactics, which was a mix of Empires with some hardcore strategy (the basis, which has been refined in his later games). Guess I'll have to try out DC: Case Blue, because the Eastern Front interests me far more than the Western Front (the first DC game covered the invasion of France and Sea Lion, as far as I know). Loved all the previous episodes in which Bruce got into detail about it (inspired me to watch more documentaries, read some books about the subject matter etc.).

Regarding the podcast: Extremely great, on par with the earlier shows on War in the East. Listened to it while playing some scenarios of the UoC Red Turn DLC (Korsun Pocket etc.).

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UoC felt like the elephant in the room during that episode, even though it was mentioned at the end. I've never played War in the East, and it seems likely I am not the guy they were thinking of when they made it, but UoC has inflamed in me a facination with the subject matter. I would have loved a quick examination of how they compare gameplay wise.

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I would love to do another Unity of Command show and maybe get Tomislav on. That will be a new year thing at the earliest though.

Yeah, I recently messaged Tomislav, Nenad and the others about a 3MA episode about UoC Red Turn, and they said they don't have time for it at the moment. But maybe it could be realized next year. BTW, also hinted to this particular 3MA episode at the Unity of Command Forums.

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Nice podcast, but I think you guys missed a big point about the scenarios in WitE Don to the Danube: most of them are there because somebody requested them in some way or another on the forums. People seconded Zac's (?) feelings about the limited selection of scenarios available at release, some were requesting scenarios with an scope similar or higher than that of the tutorial.

The rationale for these - as far as I can remember - was that they'd became good 'entry level' scenarios, somewhat more complex and interesting than the tutorial, covering well known episodes of the struggle on the eastern front (the Korsun pocket, the 1942 Kharkov foiled Soviet offensive, the struggle at Demjansk, etc.). John (bcgames) added to these requests some small scenarios covering a number of post-Uranus Soviet offensive operations, which would lead to the infamous Manstein's "backhand blow". You can see that John focused on these small to mid scale scenarios. And since these are small, there's quite a number of them. Last, but not least important, John started just as another player, learning the ropes with WitE editor. But he distinguished himself by devoting much more time and perseverance in his interest about making scenarios, and produced tutorials and manuals which were valuable 'WitE scenario making primers'.

There weren't many others like John because the imagination of a great majority of WitE player base is captured by Grand Campaigns. Joel Billings posted some stats about what scenarios were being played over Slitherine PBEM server

http://www.matrixgam...b.asp?m=3230405

obviously, these figures don't account for on-going PBEM games which don't use Slitherine infrastructure as an umpire, but I'd be very surprised to see that those deviated significantly from the proportions quoted by Joel.

On the other hand, the larger scale scenarios in the expansion are there also because having been requested by the community. Red Army Resurgent, covering from Uranus to Manstein's backhand blow, Disaster in the Ukraine, covering the battles from the Dnepr all the way to the Carpathian Mountains, and another very nice scenario covering the massive encirclement of Army Group North in the Baltic, right at the same time Bagration was just steamrolling Army Group Center. These are made by Trey Marshall, and there are less of them because they obviously take more time to get done and playtest.

The expansion came up as a second thought, and some of these scenarios - such as Korsun Pocket, Red Army Resurgent - were available for free download for most of 2011. Threads discussing these scenarios have been heavily edited by the end of Summer 2011, possibly at the time 2by3 and Matrix had decided to go ahead with the idea of bundling these scenarios for WitE

http://www.matrixgam...b.asp?m=2931023

You can still find the original versions of some of the scenarios bundled with Don to the Danube

http://www.matrixgam...m.asp?m=2805531

http://www.matrixgam...m.asp?m=2790631

others were deleted by the end of Summer 2011 (if my memory serves me well).

In any case, great podcast, guys. And about your question about what kind of games are good to introduce people into wargaming... certainly not War In The East, nor Battlefront's Combat Mission Battle For Normandy games. I'd say that good entry level games would be stuff such as Unity of Command - very neat design, very little chrome - for the same subject matter, Panzer Corps - basically because it's just Panzer General 21st Century Edition, and Panzer General was probably the first computer wargame for a bunch of dudes out there - and Battle Academy, which has always have this flair of being a quite light introduction to WW2 tactical-level wargaming.

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I just heard about your video casts and really enjoyed your discussions on WitE. I was disappointed in your discussion on your own disappointment in the very small scenarios included in the Don to Danube Expansion. One particular issue that was discussed was that the Stalingrad campaign was very limited in scope. This is quite a puzzling observation of the scenario pack as the "Red Army Resurgent" scenario covers all of Army Group A and Army Group South started with the Operation Uranus in Nov. 1942 through May 1943 and additionally covers the withdrawal of the Germans from the Caucasus. There are three other Army Group sized scenarios that cover significant late war campaigns of significant length.

Trey

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Enjoyed the episode. And really dont want to blow my own trumpet, but am going to do so anyway. Well just a little :)

A number of issues you had with WitE I tried to have adressed in Decisive Campaigns : Case Blue.

Among them DC has movement penalties for hexes where combat occured so it makes exploitation after a long battle not very effective.

Also high command in DC is forcing you to play in a suboptimal/more historical way giving orders like: "no you dont, you will hold Stalingrad indefenitely" or "take Voronezh within 6 turns". If you run out of "prestige" it could end the game for you due to being dismissed by the supreme command. (read: Hitler/Stalin)

Furthermore I added a 1st Panzer Army campaign in which you troops transfer from scenario to scenario in a 4 scenario mini campaign, so it matters what you do in the previous scenario.

If you like the eastern front you might want to give this game a look. Or maybe you already did :)

Keep up the good work with the podcast show!

Best regards,

Vic

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Enjoyed the episode. And really dont want to blow my own trumpet, but am going to do so anyway. Well just a little :)

A number of issues you had with WitE I tried to have adressed in Decisive Campaigns : Case Blue.

Among them DC has movement penalties for hexes where combat occured so it makes exploitation after a long battle not very effective.

Also high command in DC is forcing you to play in a suboptimal/more historical way giving orders like: "no you dont, you will hold Stalingrad indefenitely" or "take Voronezh within 6 turns". If you run out of "prestige" it could end the game for you due to being dismissed by the supreme command. (read: Hitler/Stalin)

Furthermore I added a 1st Panzer Army campaign in which you troops transfer from scenario to scenario in a 4 scenario mini campaign, so it matters what you do in the previous scenario.

If you like the eastern front you might want to give this game a look. Or maybe you already did :)

Keep up the good work with the podcast show!

Best regards,

Vic

Extremely cool you join in here personally, Victor. If there's a demo available of Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue, I'll definitely give it a try! Plus, regarding those high command decisions: This is MUCH more realistic than WitE. WitE basically leaves out High Command/ OKH/ Stavka, but the war on the Eastern Front can't be recreated without these insane, extremely ineffective (and inhuman) decisions. But I guess Unity of Command somehow gets this part right by only giving you predetermined scenarios with harsh time limits, which somehow reflects the insane decisions the High Commands of both sides made.

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Re the discussion on pricing at the end of an interesting discussion there were a couple of things that weren't mentioned that belong in the area. The first is that as well as being a significant investment of money WitE also sounds like a fairly hefty investment of time as well. Compared to the also mentioned UoC - which I've got, enjoy and was able to get to grips with pretty quickly - WitE has always sounded like it's got a long and steep learning curve. One where it going to take a fair effort just to get to the point of being able to manage things competently let alone get good enough to start winning campaigns.

Of course I could be wrong, which brings me to the second point: no demo. At least as far as I know, I've checked a few times but never found any sign of one. The combination of these things has always put me off WitE. If it was cheap I'd buy it on spec and be prepared to write off the time/money if I didn't get along with it. If there was a demo I'd invest the time to find out whether I'd like it. As it is it's a fairly expensive shot in the dark that will soak up time to find out if it's my cup of tea. That's why UoC gets the Eastern Front strategy gig for me, it may not have the scope and depth but I tried the demo, found it worked well and bought it. Of course it's up to the publisher to decide how to price things and whether a demo is worth the effort but I can't help feeling that they're missing out a useful slice of the market by having both a steep(ish) price and no way to try out the game before buying.

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Whilst WiTE is more accessible, it's still a "monster" Grisby wargame. As was mentioned on the podcast, it's pretty much sold to an already captivated but very small and niche audience. I guess they could dish out one of the smaller scenarios as a demo, but even the three turn tutorial is more about mechanics, than any "bigger picture" operational wargame.

It's sad, but I'm not sure many players who have been introduced to wargaming by Unity of Command would grasp or embrace WiTE even if it was a more reasonable price. There is so much data behind it, and so much that is unknown of the mechanics, anyone who bathed in the puzzle-like beauty of UoC and it's transparency, would probably shrink away from the depths involved in WiTE. Having said all that though, it is possible to play WiTE at the more "superficial" level, and just move chits around, and "play at war".

UoC players looking for a deeper experience on the Eastern Front should definitely look towards Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue first.

I'd like to see more wargames opened up to the bigger gaming public, I'd like to see them get more attention on distribution platforms such as Steam, at affordable prices - and not just exorbitant prices to milk the captivated audience! It is happening little by little, UoC on Steam, Wastelands Interactive games on Desura, Battle Academy and Battle of the Bulge on iPad. But the likes of WiTE (and most of Matrix Games catalogue) are still well out of reach of such channels.

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UoC players looking for a deeper experience on the Eastern Front should definitely look towards Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue first.

I would also pitch The Operational Art of War 3 as a good step up on the complexity scale from Unity of Command. I'm plaything the heck out of both of those games at the moment.

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It's sad, but I'm not sure many players who have been introduced to wargaming by Unity of Command would grasp or embrace WiTE even if it was a more reasonable price.

Maybe so, but I'd reckon there are still useful numbers like me who'd give it a go. I used to play hex based games quite a lot - V for Victory: Velikiye Luki and such - but got distracted by RTS games with shiny graphics so lost touch with that kind of gameplay. My memory is that some of them were a total grind, not because of any particular depth, just poor design or conversion from a board game. Some managed to combine complexity in the gameplay with (relative) simplicity in the actual mechanics of playing though. And whilst WitE may be on the right side of that equation it's difficult to tell. In the podcast, for instance, someone mentioned that the tutorial/manual was essentially a list of what various buttons/keys did in some arbitrary order rather than a logical progression through the levels of gameplay. That kind of thing isn't a great encouragement to shell out for it.

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Maybe so, but I'd reckon there are still useful numbers like me who'd give it a go.

I guess it would depend on whether 2x3 Games and Matrix thought those useful numbers would be worth enticing by a) making a demo sufficient enough for these floating players, or B) price it down enough that it makes the purchase more of a reality.

Matrix has a Christmas sale on at the moment, and WiTE is part of that - it's down to $52.99 - not sure whether that puts the title more in the range of folks like yourself.

http://www.matrixgames.com/news/982/Matrix.Games.Holiday.Sale.is.Here!

But Matrix has quite a history of not having demo's for games, one or two of the newer titles (mainly Slitherine titles) have demos, like Battle Academy and Panzer Corps, but most of their collection are demo-averse. Which is a shame, but then again, a lot of the titles are very niche, and so are their UI's, not sure the general gaming public would be willing to put up with some of the UI's wargamers have to suffer - it seems.

In the podcast, for instance, someone mentioned that the tutorial/manual was essentially a list of what various buttons/keys did in some arbitrary order rather than a logical progression through the levels of gameplay. That kind of thing isn't a great encouragement to shell out for it.

I agree totally. A good AAR or a lets play video series would do wonders to open the door to WiTE, and it more or less took a fan released "Guide" (called Operational Boot Camp) on the Matrix forums to get everyone up to speed to play the game.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2649216

I think WiTE could be made marketable for a wider audience, but I suspect the effort involved in making it so, wouldn't outweigh the extra revenue pulled in. Which is why a lot of the game is opaque even to wargamers and a the price is suitably high to maximise revenue.

Just to throw in another Eastern Front game, that is very entertaining, and boardgame orientated, but which is 11 years old and the graphics might not cut it for players nowadays is Schwerpunkt's Russo-German War. I did an AAR on the Crimean Scenario, that takes you through play, step-by-step - if anyone is interested. The good news is that Ron (the Dev) is currently working on an updated title, that takes in the entire World War II (effectively marrying his RGW game and the Anglo-German War game). His WWII game is probably due out next year some time.

rgwss2.jpg

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I'd like to see more wargames opened up to the bigger gaming public, I'd like to see them get more attention on distribution platforms such as Steam, at affordable prices - and not just exorbitant prices to milk the captivated audience! It is happening little by little, UoC on Steam, Wastelands Interactive games on Desura, Battle Academy and Battle of the Bulge on iPad. But the likes of WiTE (and most of Matrix Games catalogue) are still well out of reach of such channels.

Regarding pricing strategy at Matrix being "milking the captivated audience". I'm not entirely sure what is the information you have that makes you so positive about that, spelk. Sales numbers are one of the best kept secret in the hardcore computer wargaming industry, but one would say they're not really nothing to write home about.

While everyone appreciates that enjoyable cheap stuff is readily available, I'd like to note that these kind of electronic marketplaces - such as Apple iStore or Steam - are only benefitting one entity, and that's Steam. Let's say that UoC sells 10,000 units on Steam (and that's probably 5 times more than WitE has already sold since release). Then what's Steam cut? 20%? 40% of that? At 20$ per unit, that makes 200,000$. A competent programmer salary in a country with decent salaries is at about 70,000 to 90,000 $. After paying the cut to the publisher, that leaves very little money (if any) to pay for artists, historical research and design.

The thing is that wargames - very much like their boardgame counterparts - are usually developed by very small teams, spending relatively little in art or user interface design - more expensive, in a per hour basis than programming - and relying mostly on volunteers to do the research and Q&A.

Will that change? Perhaps titles like UoC are genuinely something that will become more common in the future. But I wonder whether UoC devs will want to wade again into these waters.

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Regarding pricing strategy at Matrix being "milking the captivated audience". I'm not entirely sure what is the information you have that makes you so positive about that, spelk. Sales numbers are one of the best kept secret in the hardcore computer wargaming industry, but one would say they're not really nothing to write home about.

I have no information, I used the phrase flippantly and without backing, other than being part of the wargaming community and purchasing a bucketload of titles from Matrix. Essentially Matrix price to the market they know and sell to.

Will that change? Perhaps titles like UoC are genuinely something that will become more common in the future. But I wonder whether UoC devs will want to wade again into these waters.

They've recently just released an expansion for UoC, Red Turn, that is also available on Steam. I don't really know how well UoC has done on Steam, but it's the global exposure, more than purely the revenue stream that raises the profile. I'd imagine with a title like UoC it is expandable into the Western Theatre of operations fairly easily. If the heightened exposure and sales on Steam back it up, I can't really see them cooling off if theres a market there, but who knows.

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I have no information, I used the phrase flippantly and without backing, other than being part of the wargaming community and purchasing a bucketload of titles from Matrix. Essentially Matrix price to the market they know and sell to.

Perhaps I sounded a bit too harsh, but I think we tend - in general - to think too little about the underlying economic constraints and complain about prices too quickly. I assume you're British spelk, and depending on where do you live, you'll probably know well what mass distribution companies aggressive pricing policies - like Tesco - mean for owners of small farms. When you see a 10% rebate on one item, it's more likely that most of that rebate means less income for the producer, rather than the distributor.

There was quite a ruckus on Battlefront.com forums regarding the pricing of the engine upgrade for Combat Mission: Battle for Normandy. They were asking 10$ for it. Compared with similarly priced DLC's - like that of X-Com: Enemy Unknown - I think it 10$ is a lot of value for money, even if in easier times, a similar thing would have come for free in a patch.

They've recently just released an expansion for UoC, Red Turn, that is also available on Steam. I don't really know how well UoC has done on Steam, but it's the global exposure, more than purely the revenue stream that raises the profile. I'd imagine with a title like UoC it is expandable into the Western Theatre of operations fairly easily. If the heightened exposure and sales on Steam back it up, I can't really see them cooling off if theres a market there, but who knows.

Indeed, exposure and ease of access are the two angles Steam uses to attract developers willing to publish their stuff on their marketplace. It's also true that in the event of Steam losing the rights to publish the game, as far as I can understand the Legal English in the EULA, the game will be gone from your library. This means that Steam games, even the AAA games selling at 50+ $ prices aren't really yours. You can't back them up in the cloud (as I do with Matrix's titles) since you don't own a copy, rather, you owe the right to use a copy of the game. For many practical purposes, it's the same thing, but not for all of them.

But I don't want to go into bashing Steam, they're quite decent folks and they lay openly the rules of the game for us to inspect before engaging in it.

Regarding the Red Turn DLC. That's far too cheap for the amount of content you're providing (even if all the scenarios are due to the volunteer work of ComradeP), guys. 20$ would have been a fairer price, in my humble opinion.

Edited by Bletchley_Geek

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