Buying or building a PC

[James]

As I mentioned in another thread, I've been thinking of either buying or building a new PC recently; probably the latter. In fact, I could probably salvage a few of the more peripheral parts (drives, inputs, etc.) from the old PC I currently use and the newer one that died.

Anyway, the question I'm asking is basically two-fold:

What is a good set of specs? I'd like to be able to run stuff that's out at the moment (obviously), preferably at high-ish settings, and I'd like some amount of future-proofing (as in I don't want it to be a pile of shit six months down the road). I guess those are pretty vague requests. One thing that might help is that my monitor (which I have no intention of replacing) has a native resolution of 1920x1200, and looks like utter shit at anything less than 1280x768, so I'd have to be able to run things at those sorts of settings. I don't know how that compares to the average, but I was using a CRT before this, so running at non-native resolutions wasn't as big a deal, and I could get away with running more demanding games at really low resolution.

What do I need to do to minimize the risk of all of this breaking? I don't know if I've just been unlucky with PCs, or if I've had bad set-ups, or if this happens to everyone and PC gamers just put up with it. I think at least one of my problems has been due to the PSU, which is something I'd never really considered before, and it occurred to me that I wouldn't know how to pick the correct one for a particular system. I mean, these were pre-built PCs, so it's not like I just threw some pieces together at random and complained when it blew up, but I'd added the occasional hard disk and swapped the occasional graphics card, and perhaps that caused everything to go wrong (I'm guessing the latter is a more likely culprit). Anyway, some pointers on common pitfalls would be nice, if you have any.

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but if I'm going to try this again, I want to get it right. I used to feel like I pretty much knew my stuff when it came to PCs, but things have moved on somewhat since then, so hopefully a bit of advice will restore some of my former confidence.

Thanks. If nothing else, I really need to play HL2:E2 one of these days (I thankfully finished Portal before my previous PC gave up).

[gdf]

If you think you'd be able to knock one together yourself and you're not totally up to speed then this guide might help.

I'm not an expert on PC specs, but to give you a bit of perspective my rig runs Fallout 3 at a consistent 50 FPS outside towns on high spec with good AA on my 1400x900 monitor. I get a solid 60 out of every game in The Orange Box on full, about 50ish from Crysis sitting between medium and high and 60 from Oblivion on full without any OCing. Perhaps you should consider getting two graphics cards if you want to run newer games on native res though.

I'm repeating myself a little but here's my basic spec sheet:

CPU: 2x 300GHz Intel Core 2 Duo

Graphics: Nvidia GeForce 8800GT 512MB

RAM: something 2GB

HDD: Maxtor 500GB

Motherboard: Foxconn P35AX-S

Hope this helps in some way.

[James]

OK, thanks, I'll take a look at that.

Perhaps you should consider getting two graphics cards if you want to run newer games on native res though.

My broken PC actually had two graphics cards in SLI, but I think they may have been the source of its woes. Then again, that's more of a hunch than anything concrete.

[Scrobbs]

From a recent specc'ing experience (it is a ball-ache - if you don't look at it for 18 months, you have to re-learn everything again), came up with the following setup:

4GB(4x1GB) Corsair QuadX DDR2 XMS2 Dominator, PC2-8500, 240 Pin, Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 5-5-5-15 [Memory] 119.43

Thermalright HR-01 PLUS [Passive CPU Heatsink] 33.34

Antec P182 Performance One [Quiet case] 108.48

Asus P5Q-E [Passively cooled mobo] 100.84

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 Quad Core CPU 240.97

Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 1GB 199.99

I already have the PSU, HD and decent soundcard.

I have gone for passive cooling as I generally don't overclock and I'm sick of my PC sounding like a hovercraft. Hope this helps, ask any questions. This machine should be able to cope with the upcoming Empire Total war at maximum pretty.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I always go by this guide:

http://arstechnica.com/hardware/guides/2008/09/guide-200809.ars

It's probably due some minor tweaks now (it's dated Sept 08) but it's definitely a good guide...

I run the following and have found BioShock, Oblivion and Fallout 3 to look fantastic and be perfectly playable...

PROC: Intel E6600 Core2Duo 2.40GHz

RAM: 4GB (4x1GB) CorsairTwinX XMS2, DDR2 PC2-6400 (800)

MOBO: Gigabyte 965P-DS3P

GFX: XFX 8800GTS PCI-E 320MB

HD: 2x 400 Gb Seagate ST3400620AS Barracuda 7200.10 (RAID 1)

CASE: Antec Sonata II

[Scrobbs]

Johnny, do you run Vista with that?

[James]

Thanks for that. It's nice to have some example specs to consider. What retailer or retailers do those prices refer to, Scrobbs? Also, what sort of resolution do you generally run things at?

I did the thing I always do (going to a site and being tempted by all the absolute top-of-the-range stuff then being horrified by the price and put off the affair completely), so I was kind of going off the idea, but then a friend suggested he was thinking of upgrading and the prospect of getting into some multiplayer with him won me back over, so I'll definitely look into these suggestions. This is all rather exciting.

[Scrobbs]

I tend to run games at 1680x1050 (my eyes start to hurt if I go smaller). That system I posted above should have no trouble running games at 1920x1200 and give 2560x1600 a decent go.

The prices were accurate as of 20/01/09; the memory and CPU heatsink were priced at Scan (scan.co.uk) and the rest was from CCLComputers.com. I use CCL because it's up the road from me, so easy to collect and return stuff if it breaks.

Total was £803.05, and I think VAT is included. But I shall be claiming that back.

Just done a quick check and the CPU is now priced at £240.29.

The Q9550 is a socket 775 - Intel have just released their new i7 chipset, and will be pushing that, so 775 is starting to drop. i7 chips are insanely expensive, prolly not worth considering unless you're feeling really flush (mobos are around 2-300, the chips can go up to £800 and so on).

It is worth spending the extra to get a modular power supply as well, allowing you to only use the power leads you need - this keeps your case tidy. Seasonic do good PSUs.

[James]

Just a quick thought: what OS would you guys recommend? I have XP Pro and Vista Home Premium, but both are 32-bit versions. Presumably 64-bit would be more appropriate (although last time I asked someone he said that those versions have way more driver issues). How's the whole DirectX 10 vs. not being Vista thing panning out? As far as UI goes, I don't really mind either way, but I've heard that Vista uses significantly more resources. What would you guys advise?

It is worth spending the extra to get a modular power supply as well, allowing you to only use the power leads you need - this keeps your case tidy. Seasonic do good PSUs.

Speaking of which, what sort of wattage should I be shooting for?

Edited February 7, 2009 by JamesM

[Banks]

I built a computer once, it was pretty fun, but I don't think I'd do it again. I love the macbook line

[Scrobbs]

Just a quick thought: what OS would you guys recommend? I have XP pro

Speaking of which, what sort of wattage should I be shooting for?

I'd stick with XP pro until Windows 7 comes out personally. If you have 4gb ram, XP will only address 3.5gb of that, but if you're not bothered, do that. Your PSU depends on what you want... a quad core gaming monster, overclocked with dual or triple SLI, you will need to look at nearer 1kw, but a more modest machine with good CPU and gfx, 600w will do. A basic system that will play older games, but mainly used for browsing etc. will get by on 300-400w.

[James]

Should I stick with the standard version or try to upgrade to 64-bit? Stick with 32-bit until Windows 7?

Edited February 8, 2009 by JamesM

[Wrestlevania]

One small rule of thumb I swear by: as much as possible, try to make sure all your devices run at the same bus speed -- or "whole" divisions of if not. For example: if your CPU runs at 800MHz FSB, try to get RAM and a graphics card that run at multiplications/divisions of 800MHz.

The last PC I built a few years ago was really well matched in this regard, and it was noticeably faster than better spec'd machines with less well-matched components. Can be a bit of a ball-ache, but I think it's worth doing if you're going to hand pick your components.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Johnny, do you run Vista with that?

Sure do! And I'll fight any man who tries to tell me how "bad" Vista is...

[miffy495]

I don't really mind Vista, but for the fact that my subspooler app doesn't work at all, making it impossible for me for me to install any printer of any kind. Awesome!

[James]

Crap.

I've set up a system pretty similar to the one Scrobbs described, plugged everything in, and all I get is a blank screen, fans and LEDs. Does the P5Q-E have an in-built speaker, or will I have to hook one up to hear diagnostic beeps? I didn't see any mention of either a speaker or a connection for one in the manual, so I'm not really sure about that. I'm hoping it's something simple, but I suspect I might have fucked up pretty badly somewhere in setting everything up. No beeps and no activity is a pretty bad sign, I take it. Is my only option to take it to a shop and face further expense, or is this salvageable? Well, I guess it's impossible to say with so little information, but some pointers would be nice.

I'd have experimented a bit more myself, but it's a bit of a bastard getting around in that thing. It seems like all the components are giant monsters these days, leaving even less space to work with than I remember. I actually cut myself rooting around in there, so you can understand my reluctance to pull it all apart and start again (I don't think I bled on anything, but I guess that would explain it). I'll try disconnecting some stuff tomorrow, but I don't have it in me to stay up late trying to diagnose what might already be a deceased patient.

Another prospective problem, but one I don't think would be this fatal, is that I've only plugged in 4 pins to the EATX12V thing. The manual recommends all 8, but by that stage there was already stuff in the way, making it hard to remove the cap over half of it which I'd only just noticed. I read elsewhere online that it can manage with either.

I had a feeling this might not go according to plan. PCs have it in for me. Or I just do something evil to them without realizing it.

If anyone can stop this ruining my week, and many weeks to come, I'd be very happy. Or just tell me what the internal speaker situation is. That'd be nice, too.

Shit.

EDIT: It could, of course, be something as simple as the display connection (for some reason DVI seems too high-tech to work straight away, in my mind), which would be delightful, but the screen doesn't go into standby mode as it does when it's not getting any signal, so something seems to be coming through, which suggests the right thing is specifically not coming through. I've tried both DVI ports. I guess I ought to try another video card, but I really don't want to be tearing apart the one PC I have that actually works. At least, not until I get another one working.

Also, the sound card is from a dead PC. Could that stop the whole thing from working at all? I'd have guessed not, but I've been surprised before. I guess I could just use the on-board sound, really. OH I DON'T KNOW. What are the odds it's something simple, non-fatal and inexpensive?

Edited February 19, 2009 by JamesM

[James]

It turns out using a VGA adaptor on the DVI cable solved the problem. I'm not sure why. Anyway, the ridiculous angst above is testament to my embarrassing incompetence. Now all I need to do is convince it to run some damn software. An old drive with Vista on it is stuck in an eternal loop of attempted self-repair, and for some reason it's refusing to boot from the DVD drive of the dead PC. That thing was always a bit shit, though. I should buy a new one. I might try the one from my other functional PC, but I'd rather leave it there. Anyway, that's all for another day.

While I have your waning attention, what's a good or acceptable temperature for the CPU and associated environs? I'd like to check that all my cooling stuff is set up OK.

Thank you for wasting your time in this dumb thread. I appreciate it.

[Scrobbs]

Glad you got it figured out.

A good temp for a CPU is 34-39 under no load (i.e. just windows desktop), depending on heat sink/fan arrangement and the CPU itself - a slower one will have to work harder just to run Vista, bumping the temp, if you follow.

Now you have screen, a good browse through the bios of the motherboard might help with the DVD boot issue.

[James]

I had a quick look, and it seems to be recognizing it, and I'd set it as the first boot device, but it kept telling me to insert a boot disk. I'm pretty sure the drive is crap, though. When I was using it in its previous computer I had to resort to sharing my really old computer's DVD drive over the network and installing things that way, which is dumb.

When I get home I'll try another disc, though, and perhaps the drive from my really old computer (I'd rather leave that thing functional, and I'd rather not have any IDE ribbons in the new one, but I guess that's better than buying a new SATA drive only to discover something else was the problem).

Incidentally, it now seems to run fine through the DVI cable. I find that really puzzling. The only other thing I changed was putting the sides on the case (I'd left them off previously, thinking I might need to tinker). It shouldn't even know whether it's open or closed, should it?

I guess I'll give a few things a try before buying anything. First I'll try disabling all other boot devices (not sure why that fix anything, but it's worth a try). Then I'll try another Windows disc. Then I'll try the IDE drive, I guess. If the latter works, I'll buy a new SATA drive, I think.

[toblix]

Okay, I just have to write this down, and I have time to do it while the RAID volume rebuilds.

The computer I use at work now, I built myself. The only thing that wasn't replaced from the previous computer was the case, which is important. Ever since building it, it has acted pretty weird with determining how much RAM I have. It really has 12GB, but sometimes when I booted it it would show 8GB. It was stable as a rock, though, so I didn't do anything about it.

So on Thursday right before lunch, I installed some Office service pack thing and restarted. The computer booted fine, but when I tried starting Chrome, it just crashed right away. Some other applications crashed too, so I immediately suspected the RAM. There are six sticks in the machine, so I assumed that there was one bad stick, so I took out three sticks and booted up. Same problem. Switched to the other three sticks, same problem. Okay, so I put all the sticks back and reinstalled Windows. 12GB, everything's working okay, then it blue screens and shows 6GB! Now I'm thinking it's not the RAM -- it's the motherboard.

So I drive to the shop and get a new motherboard. I spend the rest of the day and some of Friday morning replacing the motherboard. It shows 12GB RAM, I reinstall Windows, everything's OK, and then it BSODs. Now the system disk is dead. It was a OCZ Matrix or Vertex SSD. Okay, so that was the reason the programs suddenly crashed -- they had been corrupted on disk as it started to fail. So I drive back to the shop and buy a couple of disk. I install them, install Windows AGAIN, everything's ok and then it BSODs again. On reboot I have 6GB ram...

I've decided neither the motherboard is at fault though, so I drive back to the shop and buy a new PSU, back to work, install it, boot, 12GB, everthing's dandy. Then the machine freezes and on restart I have 8GB RAM and Windows won't even load.

I've eliminated RAM as the culprit, replaced the motherboard, disks and PSU and still there's something wrong. I decide the only thing remaining that can cause this is the CPU, so I drive to the store and buy a new one, go back, put in the new CPU. Now the system won't even power on.

So I spent the whole of today switching out the graphics card, the RAM, the CPU, motherboard, everything, and nothing works. Then, as I'm switching motherboards for the third time, I notice something: there's one more screw standoff on the motherboard backplate than there are holes in the motherboard. So, I remove it, and everything seems fine, so far.

What we have learned: When switching motherboards, always double check that the standoffs match the holes.

[Armchair General]

You probably already did Toblix but I thought I would say it anyway, it's worth removing every usb device you possibly can, some motherboards don't like them first off, especially Gigabyte motherboards, they can even cause a crash-boot-crash cycle for no apparent reason when everything was previously fine (The problem I had).

I keep a serial connectable keyboard and mouse for this reason and use them if I ever have to fault find in my system.

Also, you must have a lot of filthy wonga lying about in your wallet to be able to just replace your entire PC almost...I AM JEALOUS. That is all thankyou.

[toblix]

Obviously I disconnected all my USB sex toys before I started fault finding. Also, I don't have to pay for my work computer out of my own pocket.

[Lu]

That reminds me, Toblix, you need to reinstall your drivers, because I tried remote activation last night and it said it couldn't find the thing and that it wasn't installed. I do so miss our late night excursions.

[toblix]

Sorry, I've had it sent in for adjustments and reribbing. It should be back online soon.

[James]

Hey, it's my thread! Did this silly thing really leave that much of an impression that you thought to dig it up? Anyway, yes, computers ate weird and sometimes seem to have ghosts? Were it not for the standoff thing I'd suggest that perhaps the motherboard had done something awful to all your sticks of RAM, ruining them. I'm very much not an expert, though, as evidenced by the above nonsense, so that would have been entirely a guess. I've heard harsh warnings about standoffs, though.

While we're on the subject of computer-assemblage, a recentish video on Tested.com concerning the building of a Windows Home Server machine once again put the idea of setting up some sort of server or other always-on device of my own in my head. I've considered this before, and consistently come to the conclusion that I'd have no need for one and that it would be a waste of electricity, but I can't shake the feeling that it would be cool to have one. I think the main reasons are that I'd quite like to have it as a project in a hobby kind of way, and that I have the carcasses of two old PCs lying about that I'd like to make some sort of Frankensteinian use of. But some of those components are buggered and I start to get enticed by shiny new stuff, so that kind of goes out the window.

In the interests of making this a discussion and not a blog, do any of you guys have something along those lines set up, what do you use it for, and do you think it's worth it? One of the things I came up against when looking into the idea was what exactly mine would be. I was looking at FreeNAS, and that was looking fairly cool, but then I started looking into integrating a TV tuner into that because to me it makes complete sense to put one in a device that's always on and has oodles of disk space, but apparently DVR is more of a media server thing and FreeNAS is more of a file server. To me it would make a lot of sense to combine the two. I saw some talk of having the two as virtual machines on the same box, but there was no consensus on how well that would work.

Anyway, I'm trying not to fall down the rabbit hole here, because like I said I think it would be fairly pointless and potentially horrendously wasteful for me, but the concept interests me.