SiN Posted August 6, 2007 I'm super excited about Rage. Just looks great. I love the post-apocalypse setting, I love the open environments, and I love the idea of a game that *actually* does arcade-style racing and FPS equally well (no, GTA doesn't count as the combat was shit!). Definitely high up there on my "most wanted list". As for the discussion on "Carmack, the game designer". Honestly, I don't think people give him enough credit. He's not Molyneux, or Sid Meier, or Wright, but like Lama said, I think he has a very good understanding of the "keeping it simple" school of game design. Remember that Q3A was his concept. The idea of a multiplayer-only FPS was unheard of at the time, to the extent that even the guys at id weren't quite sure what they were going to produce. The "no use key" feature in Doom3 was something that Carmack specifically pushed for. In a sense, there was a "use" key, but no "fire/attack" key ... left-mouse-button was a context sensitive action key. That combined with the computer terminals was ingenious design. It's one of those little innovations that I'm a bit surprised hasn't been used by anyone else, just because it's so simple and makes so much sense. Finally, id's mobile stuff was Carmack designed too. Doom RPG isn't innovative, but it's excellent design. It's a game designed specifically for the hardware it was intended to be played on. Which sounds so simple it's ridiculous, but Carmack succeeded in this where many "real" game designers have failed. But wait, there's more! Let's talk "Carmack, the engineer". elmuerte, what makes you doubt his engineering skills? I mean, have you even looked at his open sourced engines? If you haven't, I'll save you a bit of trouble. I had to go through the Quake 3 Arena source at my job (it was my best assignment, EVER ) and it's very well designed. Got a week-long job done in 2 days, because the design was so nice. SiN Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpiderMonkey Posted August 7, 2007 I think Carmack the designer is very much the same as Carmack the engineer. His design aesthetic seeks out and enjoys simplicity and elegance, because that is the same aesthetic required to become a great programmer. One thing that's always amused me is how id and Nintendo have never got on very well (as he acknowledged in a Quakecon interview or two). On one side, the pentagrams and the demons obviously doesn't jive with Nintendo. But on the other side, the focus on raw simplicity is like a perfect fit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanJW Posted August 7, 2007 Ahh, but Nintendo seek simplicity for ergonomic reasons, whereas from the above discussion it seems Carmack and id seem to seek simplicity for reasons of elegance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LOPcagney Posted August 7, 2007 I'm super excited about Rage. Just looks great. I love the post-apocalypse setting, I love the open environments, and I love the idea of a game that *actually* does arcade-style racing and FPS equally well (no, GTA doesn't count as the combat was shit!). Definitely high up there on my "most wanted list". Isn't it a bit early to comment on gameplay, since, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't any yet? But I thought the rest of what you said was spot-on. John Carmack simply has a different way of thinking about games. He's a programmer at heart, and his formulas for a good game are just that: formulaic. But they work. Just like his rawly simplistic and yet undeniably successful ideas are innovative in their own right, he would never be able to create a more artistically innovative game like Myst or even Half Life 2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wrestlevania Posted August 7, 2007 If id can do for vehicular combat (which in most games that feature it is rather clunky) what they did for run-and-gun, then that can only be a good thing. Call me pessimistic, but that's a very tall order for id Software in my opinion: Innovative software? Without doubt. Innovative gameplay? Good grief, no. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanJW Posted August 7, 2007 Ah but wrestle, I'm not talking about innovative gameplay, I'm talking about refined gameplay. id have got very good at FPS mechanics; they tweak them constantly to get the feel they want for the game. If they can refine driving mechanics the same way, I think it will turn out well (and judging by Willits descriptions in the Eurogamer interview, that is exactly what they are doing). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wrestlevania Posted August 7, 2007 Fair enough, but it's such a wildly different mechanic to what id are used to doing that I'll remain sceptical until it's proven me wrong, first-hand. For example: I think it would be fair to say most people won't be expecting the accessible driving model of Forza 2 in Rage, but that's not to say I wouldn't be utterly delighted if was just a good approximation of that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SiN Posted August 7, 2007 Isn't it a bit early to comment on gameplay, since, to the best of my knowledge, there isn't any yet? I'm guessing: shooting and driving. Yeah, you're totally right though. There isn't much to go on, but incase you haven't noticed, I'm a complete id software fanboy. I'm excited! Just like his rawly simplistic and yet undeniably successful ideas are innovative in their own right, he would never be able to create a more artistically innovative game like Myst or even Half Life 2. Absolutely! I don't think he'd deny that either. But that isn't to say an id game couldn't be "artistically innovative". Look at Doom RPG as an example. He designed the engine & gameplay, and handed it over to Fountainhead for the actual content. I see the same thing happening at id. Sure he might be a part of the general gameplay discussion, but when it comes to the storyline, art and such, he leaves it to the pro's on the id team. Reading that eurogamer preview, it looks like they are putting in a bit more effort this time. I like that they're doing the mission structure in a half-life-esque way. Obviously though, it would be silly to put too much faith into Rage having a deep and engaging storyline. It's just not what id are about. Fair enough, but it's such a wildly different mechanic to what id are used to doing that I'll remain sceptical until it's proven me wrong, first-hand. I'm getting excited purely on reputation. We know id will put out a good game. Done when it's done, right? The story may end up crap (a la Doom3) but I have confidence that they won't release Rage until the gameplay is solid. Mo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LOPcagney Posted August 7, 2007 Absolutely! I don't think he'd deny that either. But that isn't to say an id game couldn't be "artistically innovative". Look at Doom RPG as an example. He designed the engine & gameplay, and handed it over to Fountainhead for the actual content. I see the same thing happening at id. Sure he might be a part of the general gameplay discussion, but when it comes to the storyline, art and such, he leaves it to the pro's on the id team. Reading that eurogamer preview, it looks like they are putting in a bit more effort this time. I like that they're doing the mission structure in a half-life-esque way. Obviously though, it would be silly to put too much faith into Rage having a deep and engaging storyline. It's just not what id are about. Man, Doom RPG was great. The only game I ever bought for a cell phone, and definitely worth the $8 I spent on it. I think I got a good few hours out of it, if not more. I know what you mean about Carmack creating the skeleton of a game and the artists creating the content. The reason I think this will be especially true with Rage is because of the demo, in which it was explained that the new engine would essentially alienate the physical and artistic game worlds (in my own understanding). The people who know what makes a game fun to play could create the levels and then send them off to be edited by the artists, with no effect on the gameplay intended by the first party. It sounds like this may allow Rage to be one of the most innovative (artistically) id games yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites