Big McLargeHuge

I sincerely apologize for implying that Bobby's coming out story is an insulting trope. I didn't mean that, but I definitely didn't express myself well with the way I put my argument together, and ended up being condescending, for which I apologize. I'm glad this resonates with people's real experiences, and that's why having this discussion is good! Specifically, I felt like Bobby being confused about his sexuality, and then having it defined for him immediately in the moment by Jean is insulting. I know that many young gay people come out as bisexual first, then realize that it isn't accurate. I also know some young gay people come out as gay, then bisexual later. I just felt like that moment didn't have any time for Bobby to come to terms with this. It's a really fine line to walk between an accurate, uncomfortable coming out story where people make mistakes and one that feels like it's validating Jean's point of view, that she knows Bobby's sexuality better than he does. It's definitely possible that the bisexual erasure argument has been a bit of a pile-on, I know I'm hypersensitive to it sometimes, as everyone is to their own lived experiences. And I do acknowledge that holding on to an imagined 'straight privilege' is definitely part of bargaining for many gay people early in the coming out process. I don't want to suppress that reality at all. I would just push back a little bit on the reality of the 'straight privilege' that is gained by being bisexual. I feel that you are right in that yes, I could date a woman, go out in public, and be assumed to be straight. I have that privilege. But can't many single gay people also go out and be assumed to be straight? Is that a privilege that's worth discussing? I feel like the comparative disadvantage that is gained is bisexual erasure. In my possible M/F relationship perceived as straight, I'm now back in the closet again. So I either have to be aggressive about informing everyone about my sexuality, or have the fun times of being closeted back with me. I completely agree with you that the way to better bisexual representation is not erasing accurate, messy details of gay coming out experiences. That's also partially on me for conflating the reality of this story, which is a gay coming out story with some unresolved issues (future Bobby primarily), with the potential for this being a bisexual coming out story. It's easy to go off with my thinking process a bit disordered, so seeing Bobby say 'Maybe I'm Bi' and Jean responding with 'They say everybody is' and defining Bobby's sexuality as 'Full Gay' hit me directly. We might be at the classic point of nearly agreeing, but arguing over a small part of what's left over. In general, more accurate coming out stories and more representation are what is needed. I don't want to erase anyone else's experience to see my own.

I respect Rachel Edidin a lot, and I agree with much of her article as well, but I'm still conflicted about entirely letting Bendis off the hook here. I guess the intention was to have a somewhat realistic (although telepathy is involved, so.....) non-perfect coming out story. Ok, I agree that not every coming out story needs to be the platonic ideal of all best practices and understanding. But as a comics reader, I just don't have the trust that this will be followed up effectively. If this leads to Young Jean (who is doing lots of non-consensual mind reading) being taken to task for defining Bobby's sexuality for him, not being aware of modern bisexual erasure and the issues around it ('full gay'), and otherwise being tone deaf in general (he's gay because his relationships with women 'failed'??), then great. But doesn't Bendis have to have some awareness here of how this is going to play out? People will hear about the issue where Bobby is revealed as gay, this will spread far beyond comics readers who have the context of Young Jean vs. Original Jean, and without this context, it's easy to see this falling into all the old tropes, just like Apple Cider mentions: I guess I'm conflicted about the helpfulness of a realistic, somewhat bad coming out story coming from a straight writer who seems not to be fully aware of the ramifications of what he's doing. I have no problem with realistic coming out stories, or with Bobby really being gay and closeted. I don't need him to be bisexual to validate my sexuality, but I do need writers to recognize the old insulting tropes when they accidentally fall into them.

But is the adult version of him straight for sure? I just figured my identity out in the last year or so and I'm 32, it happens! This could have been an opportunity to explore sexual fluidity, multisexual identity, any number of things. And maybe it will be, but I'm not exactly holding my breath.

Yeah, I'm trying not to overreact to it seeming really tone deaf. I'm only out to a few friends and family as bisexual, and one of the things that took me the longest to get over was that I didn't feel 'gay enough'. I'm feeling very sensitive to comments like 'everyone's a little bisexual' and 'half-gay' etc., so it really hacked me off.

So one of the original X-men is 'coming out' as gay. I put it this way because it looks like a complete catastrophe, including nonconsensually revealing his sexuality via telepathy, implying that because his relationships with women 'failed' (I guess relationships that end have failed??) he is gay, and defining his sexuality for him while implying that bisexuality doesn't exist: From here: http://bisexual-books.tumblr.com/post/117013576522/how-to-fail-at-coming-out-stories-in-comics It seems like a major uphill struggle to make this seem like a good idea, rather than an attempt at representation collapsing under a pile of insulting LGBT cliches and stereotypes.

I really hope support for this is not widespread, it's been a horrific year for the trans community: http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/02/20/miami-seventh-trans-woman-murdered-us-2015 http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/04/07/london-police-search-suspect-murder-trans-woman-visiting-us

With a hat tip to Old Man Murray, you could use 'Start to Straight' as one factor.

I guess I saw Merus' point (and please clear this up if I'm wrong, Merus) as the unfounded fear being that if a law isn't perfect, passing the 'half-a-loaf' version will actually be worse than nothing. I definitely don't agree with that view, and progress definitely depends on making these flawed laws better. However, as I have been getting a little more involved in the LGBTQ+ community here, it definitely seems like there is a stronger push for the 'mainstream' advocacy of marriage equality and more focus on the LG parts. As someone who is very privileged on several axes (cis, male, white, middle-class), but less on one axis (bisexual), it has been slightly discouraging to see how strong the monogamous LG focus can be. I'm still learning so much from new friends in the community, and there are definitely groups doing great work here (Transgender Education Advocates of Utah among others) who are concerned with other issues. I know that these kind of social justice issues (homelessness, mental illness, addiction, sexual abuse, etc.) have always been less supported by larger, non-single issue advocacy groups, and I guess I'm feeling that it would be great to harness some of the amazing power of the marriage equality push in LGBTQ+ groups to help these issues too. Especially since those issues are so disproportionately problems in the LGBTQ+ community as a whole.

That's definitely true, and I am in favor of getting laws passed that do some, but not all, of what I might want. I'm definitely happy about marriage equality advancing, and the non-discrimination bill in Utah. I just have to overcome the feeling of immediately looking for the dark side, and keep working for change (the little bit that I contribute).

Yeah, there are still a lot of bad feelings towards the LDS leadership for the Prop. 8 funding (and I share those feelings), but definitely no bill would have passed here without their support, which they actually did have this time. I'm trying to hold on to some bits of good news. I do worry somewhat that if marriage equality becomes settled with the Supreme Court ruling, that some of the wind goes out of the sails on LGBTQ+ issues that are also so important (nondiscrimination, homelessness, mental health, etc.).

Here in Utah, we have kind of a 2 steps forward, 1 step back situation (that's the optimistic view) with a nondiscrimination bill that includes sexual orientation and gender identity, but also a compromise 'religious freedom' bill that allows discrimination if you are a religious organization (huge in the state). On the one hand, the nondiscrimination bill (HB296) would have never passed without the 'religious freedom' bill (HB322), and a nondiscrimination bill like this has failed for the past several years. On the other hand, these 'religious freedom' bills seem like they are rife with the potential for unintended (or indended) discriminatory consequences. I definitely have mixed feelings, but I'm trying to be optimistic.

Thanks, that makes sense. I definitely wasn't paying enough attention when I re-married Brian, so I'm mostly getting Martial education stats. I read somewhere else that you could game the system by moving a character's education to someone with Diplomacy (Grey Eminence, say) right before they come of age. Does that still work, or was that patched out?

When you're breeding for high diplomacy, would it be better to raise your heirs with the highest diplomacy person in your court, or are the advangages of doing it yourself still better even if you have lower diplomacy?

Yeah, I'm thinking about changing to some kind of elective for that reason. My heir now (one of Brian's sons) actually has pretty good stats, but you can get boned by terrible first-born stats in primogeniture.

I've been using the Thumbs start (Murchad of Munster in 1066) and having a pretty good time! I managed to create the Kingdom of Ireland while Murchad was still alive, but I may have lived too long. Early on, Brian started some plots against me, but I usually just persuaded him to give them up. I even managed to change to primogeniture, so he was the heir to everything. As time went on, I was letting him go on hunts (for the prestige), got him a wife with pretty good stewardship, and he had a few kids with pretty good stats. At a few of my feasts, Brian was the one throwing up on my shoes, and he eventually got the nickname 'the Drunkard'. I wasn't really paying attention to his other stats, but he seemed ok. About a year after I formed the Kingdom of Ireland (~1099), I got a popup for a new heir! What happened? 'Brian ua Briain has died of Depression' Somewhere in the past, he had become Infirm, and along with being a drunk, also become depressed. I guess I lived too long!