Problem Machine

I'm coming into the thread late so maybe I'm missing some context, but is the belief that the only problem with PAX is its association with the gross things that PA says? Because I honestly think there are some more systemic problems as well... like some kind of, I dunno, blood alien monster thing. http://loveconquersallgam.es/post/60281881446/an-open-letter-to-jerry-holkins#_=_ http://littlelull.tumblr.com/post/60240420647/i-cant-go-back-or-why-im-so-bent-out-of-shape-about It's times like this I'm absurdly grateful that the IT community exists, that there's a place to talk about games that isn't infested with misogynerds. Sigh. Real depressed right now.

Capcom done got torchlit.

Argh. So good. Makes me feel like a bit of a fraud for even trying to write.

Well, it's one thing to say it fits in the setting (I agree), it's kind of another to premise a multi-player mode on its efficacy Well maybe I shouldn't have found it difficult to express why. MAYBE I'm a big dummy. Maybe.

Yeah I like that particular concession. "Well, torture's not a reliable means of gathering information, so you gotta torture five dudes just to be sure." I dunno. i find it difficult to express why, but it kind of feels like that's even a little bit more terrible?

Oh... my. I wish I had friends to play this with

So, uh...

Haha I was just listening to the cast where they talked about Tennnes and Sean was saying that he avoided playing it on stream because games like that turned him into a super-competitive monster. It's fun to see that transformation in real time, even if it's cut short by a mildly indignant knock on the door. Is there any option for like a 2v2 co-op mode in Super Pole Riders? Or, I guess it's still in alpha, so do you have any idea if one's being planned? Seeing some of the stuff that was accidentally happening, like whacking your opponent with your pole which boosted him just high enough to kick the ball from behind into his own goal, makes me imagine that some really crazy co-op antics would be possible.

This could actually be a really good Batman comic in the hands of a competent writer. Character growth, all that shit.

Maybe not entirely. It is a good point that the results of torture are, at least hypothetically, much more measurable in terms of usable information vs unusable information: On the other hand, given unusable information, people will often try to use it anyway and blame failure on other factors. This is where the comparison the faith healing becomes at least a bit salient I think. More so than that, though, I just wanted to show that the logic didn't necessarily follow. When it comes to torture... call me a pessimist, but I think even if we knew it didn't work, some people would want to do it anyway, for reasons ancient and dark and cruel. The urge to behave in this fashion predates interrogations, enhanced or otherwise, and timebombs, ticking or otherwise. That, more than anything else, is why I personally believe it has persisted as a practice, regardless of the justifications used.

Well, ignorance aside (I can't claim to have a huge knowledge base on the subject myself), the logic doesn't hold up. That's all I wanted to point out, and I don't believe that it's snarky to do so. I don't see why correcting you on the facts would be helpful and pointing out a logical fallacy on your part wouldn't be. Oh well.

Are you claiming that any practice that endures past a certain amount of time is therefore definitely to some degree effective? Because kids still die due to faith healing...

This actually reminds me of something I was writing recently, about how a dog I've been taking care of has a nearly endless capacity for and interest in fetching, and comparing that to how we interact with games. I was thinking that, while dogs are interested in certain primal tasks that are embedded deep within their genetic code in many cases, most games we devise for ourselves are a great deal more complex, and usually require us to exercise ourselves in several primal tasks in conjunction. I think Super Hexagon is an interesting exception to that trend, even more primally than a game like Tetris or Zuma which do engage some long-term problem solving skills. I guess my point is, there's a style of game that is addictive because it provides a primally satisfying task to accomplish, and a style that is addictive because it exploits our wiring in terms of stockpiling and dealing with random events. I believe that the latter is somewhat unethical and the former isn't: This may just be an artificial differentiation on my part, it could be that both are just triggering our primal wiring in approximately the same way, but they feel different to me, if only in terms of, for me personally, I can look back on time spent on the former with satisfaction, and time spent with the latter with disgust, disdain, sorrow. I guess the real qualitative difference between those styles is that the Skinner box ropes you in by convincing you in a fundamental way that you'll lose something if you quit now, whereas Super Hexagon is just itself, as itself, and you can take it or leave it, but it is difficult to leave because that self is so appealing. (Interestingly, rereading that essay now, I notice I did in fact sneak in a reference to Super Hexagon... as a joke, without seriously considering it in the terms mentioned above. Oh well, missed opportunity)

"...I could see myself just playing this game indefinitely additional hours and hours and hours and hours of my life, and like, that's kind of what most mobile games are designed to be and do, social games as well, and I just find it a little distressing and off-putting" No specific mention of Zynga, but that seemed to me to be the kind of game you were referring to. To be fair, my awareness of the mobile and social games space is limited -- mostly by choice, for the reasons you mention here -- so I could be way off base here.

I was not aware of this history, or even the existence of this game. I'll have to check it out at such time as I have moneys for buying games.

That you felt like you could play it forever (at the time, ep after this you mentioned having burnt out on it fairly quickly), but that you'd gotten everything of substance out of it in the first hour or so of play. On the one hand I feel kind of silly for taking exception to this, because there are a lot of games that you can have deep thoughts while playing -- Tetris, Audiosurf, whatever leaves the verbal part of your brain mostly free while occupying spacial and reactive parts. On the other hand, I think that, firstly, just because it's relatively commonplace doesn't mean that it's not important, and I think it's really interesting that this is something games can actually have in common with spiritual practices, such as prayer beads, and secondly that Super Hexagon is particularly well-suited to such reflections given the minimalistic theme suggesting falling inwards, deeper into oneself. I tried to write about it once, but wasn't really satisfied with the results. Nevertheless. I may be kind of oversensitive here, but I really do feel that SupHex is kind of an important game in terms of showing what games can express even while being purely abstract: A modern art ideal of emotion and aesthetic expressed with no narrative conceit whatsoever.

Wherever the mechanic was born is irrelevant. Whether it is its intention or not, it proposes a thesis that torture is effective and ethically defensible. I don't think it's just looking for trouble to point this out: I think this is a problem to anyone looking to craft a meaningful story within a game, whether or not you agree that it forwards a tacit argument. And, in fact, I think it would probably be worth pointing out at this juncture that possibly the most critically acclaimed television series of all time, The Wire, specifically dismantles the tropes which you argue for as a genre convention, and in so doing crafted not only a compelling drama but a strikingly honest portrayal of a broken system that claims lives wholesale.

Relistening to this ep now, I take serious exception to Chris's categorization of Super Hexagon as being like a Zynga-style exploitation game, and his IMO misguided belief that he got everything there was to get from it in a few minutes of play. Some of the feeling I've gotten playing that game is damn near religious, as I try to focus deeper and deeper on something and hone a part of myself to perfection. It's a form of meditation, and by focusing so completely on one thing it frees up one's mind in other ways. As someone who's often afflicted by anxiety issues, I sometimes use it very intentionally as a tool to fully occupy certain frantic parts of my brain while the verbal deep problem solving portion remains free to brainstorm on some problem. I often start off writing a new piece with 15-30 minutes of Super Hexagon reflection. I just... I find it really frustrating to hear it compared to games which are designed to occupy all parts of the brain very shallowly without actually challenging any of them. It feels to me like dismissing a particular game out of hand for the same reasons that others dismiss all games out of hand. I don't know, it feels like because the game is devoid of narrative context you dismiss the idea that it could contain any deep ideas, which I think is super misguided. I dunno.

Y'all forgot Fun Factor.

I think they may actually just be malformed and oversized fingers...

Yeah I'd sort of guessed as much, it seems like things would either get really chaotic or someone would end up being really quiet. I forgot about the 4 mics thing though. Does that mean we'll never get a complete thumbcast in the office with you, Chris, Sean, Nick, and Steve all together?

Hm, was Sean offput by that? I just remember him saying "wow that's dark."

Well I think that there's a good point in that they've been maybe getting a bit insular, but also a good point that if they're not into it then it's just going to be a crappy reading assignment. I think getting guests in really does help to stir things up, but when all 4 thumbs are there there really isn't a lot of room for guests to talk. I don't think there's any 'solution', per se, to this issue so much as just, maybe, something that the thumbs could keep in mind, and see if they can be aware of opportunities to get guests once in a while, or play a game outside of their normal preference once in a while, just to stir things up.

I think a big problem right now is that the crystals are just scattered around apparently at random. If, in order to get each crystal, you had to go up against some sort of specific challenge, ideally itself generated procedurally, and you had to spend time preparing to tackle that challenge, I think the whole experience would feel a lot more intense and directed. Trying to evade patrols while scraping up the materials you'd need to bypass a security system, or even just finding a juicy steak to distract an animal, or whatever. It could be pretty rad.