18 replies to this topic

[Troy Goodfellow]

This week, Bill Abner from No High Scores returns to the show along with new guest Dirk Knemeyer from Conquistador Games. What do they have in common? Both have better OOTP league teams than Troy does. The trio talk about the improvements in OOTP 13, what makes the OOTP series so special and enduring – if sometimes confusing, and why sports management games are some of the purest strategy games available. Bill sets Dirk straight on some things, Dirk complains about not finding stuff and Troy owns up to the worst free agent signing in baseball history.

Listen Here.
iTunes

And support Dirk's Kickstarter for Road to Enlightenment!

[MikeO]

Really great show. I wish it could have been an hour longer, even. I have played a few hours of OOTP13, and I'd agree with Bill and Troy that the UI seems considerably better. It's the only game making me feel guilty about playing Diablo 3 every chance I can right now, so that says a lot all by itself.

I agree, too, that text sims are fantastic strategy games, and always have been, but for those who have absolutely no interest in sports, I doubt they'd be of interest, no matter how good the games might be. So Tom Chick should unfortunately give OOTP 13 a pass.

[Michael]

I'm just getting started with OOTP myself, and I found these videos to be pretty helpful. If you're interested in seeing how the game plays, you can jump through these and get a feeling for what you might be getting into.

[Troy Goodfellow]

Really great show. I wish it could have been an hour longer, even. I have played a few hours of OOTP13, and I'd agree with Bill and Troy that the UI seems considerably better. It's the only game making me feel guilty about playing Diablo 3 every chance I can right now, so that says a lot all by itself.

I agree, too, that text sims are fantastic strategy games, and always have been, but for those who have absolutely no interest in sports, I doubt they'd be of interest, no matter how good the games might be. So Tom Chick should unfortunately give OOTP 13 a pass.

Would have loved to go longer, Mike, but one of the panel had a prior commitment. But Bill and Dirk are both welcome back any time.

[Arckon]

Hey Troy,

Have you tried the IGP Manager browser game for a F1 related manager game.

[Roke]

Listening to this made me nostalgic about the online hockey leagues I was in during University. I'm glad you returned to the sports management topic though, I spend most of my gaming time playing these type of games.

To avoid me writing a treatise I'll put my thoughts in list form:

• Bill talking about controlling the financial aspect of the game (ticket prices in this case) reminded me of Lee Brimmicombe-Wood's conversation with Bruce about theme and game design. I don't think setting ticket prices fits the theme of Out Of The Park.
  
• In my experience, Dirk's thoughts on the fictional players adding a layer of difficulty for someone jumping into the league are spot on. All the information is available but it takes time to familiarize yourself with the players and get up to a level similar to those who have been in the league a while. It's an extra obstacle to overcome since you don't have the implicit real-life knowledge to go by.
  
• OOTP 2007 may have the worst interface of any game I've played and it's certainly the worst any modern one. I came to the game from Football Manager and NHL:EastSide Hockey Manager. Figuring out where stuff was in OOTP was much more difficult for me than when I started playing the Football Manager series. I recall spending a couple of days clicking on the button to advance the day expecting it to bring me to a screen to set my lineups before a game and all it did was simulate the day.

I really enjoyed this episode. In addition to being great strategy games because of the constraints and decisions sports management games can deliver fantastic narratives. Seeing a young player develop into a star, an improbable Cup run with a small club, having players reach milestones, and even losing spectacularly keep me continuing to the next day.

[eznark]

So glad this episode finally happened! Been waiting for it. I was out of town all week so I haven't had the normal commute and haven't had a chance to listen but for once I am thrilled by the prospects of a Monday morning drive!

[Skyrider68]

It is good to hear that there are still some people out there that still enjoy thinking man's (and woman's in the spirit of inclusiveness) sports games such as the OOTP game you discussed. I never played OOTP, but was at one time a pretty diehard consumer of all things Diamond Mind, preceded by classics like Pursue the Pennant, MicroLeague Baseball, and AH's Statis Pro Baseball board game. Fun times.

My interest in baseball sims waned as I got older and my life changed, but I guess I could say that about most of my gaming. Unlike the gaming, however, my interest in the major pro sports has waned as ticket prices for decent seats has priced the average American (or Canadian for Toronto) family either into the nosebleeds or right out of the stadium altogether. Society has elevated pro athletes to the level of demigods that look down on the masses from Mt. Olympus-like piles of money. We saw the cracks in the foundations of the pro hockey world a couple seasons ago with their choking salaries, and the same fate awaits the other sports soon, the way things are going. How baseball continues in its status quo of team salary inequities is mind boggling.

Anyhow, sorry for the rant, but thanks for the short visit down baseball game memory lane!

[Codicier]

I do wonder if sports management games hit a point of information overload about 7-8 years ago (I'm a brit so my poison was champ manager/football manager not OOTP). I know having all the stats was part of what drew me to this type of game originally, but it feels like it passed the stage where getting meaningful information was easy. I think its almost got to the point where even a great UI is going to struggle.

To me the endlessly growing databases of modern sports games feels analogous to the search for photo-realism in FPS games. They are gratuitous statistics. Window dressing that often doesn't add anything.
I've heard Bill talk in the past about accuracy in sports sims being essential, but iv'e begun to wonder recently if the search for authenticity in sports games in order to fulfill the fan fantasy of a "real experience" has been at the cost of gameplay(and also usability).


The one thing i didn't hear covered in the podcast is that the very drama that draws fans to sports can be problematic to the logic that drives any game, because as any proper fan knows sports are often utterly and totally illogical.
Here in the UK we have had a near unbelievably dramatic football season, full of controversy, drama and last minute reversals.
The unexpected's existence is part of what makes sport so vibrant, for every uplifting victory there is a heart wrenching defeat.
Creating a game where the results are believable but where upsets can still occur must be a incredibly difficult task. Thinking back to the Crusader Kings show, i can think of no other genre where the temptation to reload when something goes wrong is as strong as it is in sports games.

Anyway, as always a great show. Even if i didn't agree with it all.

[Mygaffer]

So what happened to Rob Zacny? I see you are listed as host, he is no longer the host? Is he still even going to be on the show? Please don't tell me this is one of those things where all of a sudden some money comes into the picture and it ends up destroying the creative property that spawned it.
I think you are a great regular but that Rob was probably better as a host.
Well hopefully this will get cleared up. I just really want to know what is going on.

[Rob Zacny]

So what happened to Rob Zacny? I see you are listed as host, he is no longer the host? Is he still even going to be on the show? Please don't tell me this is one of those things where all of a sudden some money comes into the picture and it ends up destroying the creative property that spawned it.

If this is trolling, it is very well-done and I applaud you. If not, here's the deal:

I went on vacation for a couple weeks and while I was gone, Troy and Bruce stepped up to host great shows and give me a badly-needed break. I was running on fumes, and I felt the show quality had suffered a little bit, and there were a couple topics we had in reserve that I knew I would not be a good fit for. So Bruce did a Bomber Command episode and Troy did Out of the Park. I'm back hosting this week, refreshed thanks to my awesome panelists. The next episode might be delayed a little bit due to some stuff that's going on in our producer's life right now.

By the way, Troy created Three Moves Ahead, so it's not like it's weird when he hosts. He did it for years before stepping down to give me my shot, since he was going into PR and now represents a good many strategy games. He's got a different style than I do, and he and I joke about who is the better host, but the truth is the show is in great hands when I'm not around. And even when neither Troy nor I are around. After 170 episodes, we've all gotten pretty good at this.

[eznark]

I liked Bruce's impersonation of your NPR-esque intro, Rob, though it seemed like it may not have been on purpose.

[Troy Goodfellow]

Yay! Already forgotten!

As Rob notes, this was my show - I founded it, staffed it, made it pretty good, brought on Rob, gave him first chair and he made it pretty damned good, too.

But we do have different styles, and, if you are not hosting from week to week, it can be weird for a listener to get used to Rob's probing questions and Diane Rehm voice and then have me go full bore into a conversation with two pretty good friends about a game and league we are both in. If you listen to the back catalog, you'll find that my hosting style varied heavily depending on the topic and panel composition. Podcasts are conversations between friends and peers. (Rob is no different in this respect, btw. He is just great at what he does.)

Sorry that you didn't think my tone was correct, MyGaffer. We do mix things up a bit, and we will from time to time because (as a former host, I really really know this) it can be exhausting to plan, man and upload a show every week. In my day, I edited it too. Thankfully, Michael Hermes has taken that task and done great work with it.

Rob is right, though, that we have a super deep bench. Bruce, Julian and Tom Chick have each hosted at various points in the podcast's life and I can think of regular guests I'd pass the show off to without a moment's hesitation. I'm sure Rob can too.

For us, the important thing is the discussion. We are lucky to have many friends with similar interests and who hosts only matters insofar as getting the conversation moving. A bad guest kills things much, much faster.

I do appreciate the criticism and take it in the well meaning spirit in which I am sure it was meant. 3MA is my favorite professional accomplishment, and I have worked to share it with as many people as I can. I want it to be better.

[MikeO]

Sure you went on 'vacation', Rob, just like so many Soviet citizens went on 'vacation' to the gulag! I think everyone here knows the deal.

(j/k)

[warthurton]

So of the best episodes are full out bouts between some combination of Tom, Bruce, Troy, Julian and Rob. I'm so happy they are not in the same room sometimes.

"Can I get anyone a coffee"
"Hello gamers"
"Unity of Command is the game Panzer Corps should have been"

I could go on and on.

[rle85048]

Is there going to be a Three Moves Ahead podcast for OOTP 14?  I hope so as the 13 show was very enjoyable, and we will not get this kind of coverage anywhere else.  If there will be a new league for the game I would love to participate in it.

 

As for the comments about who hosts the show, let's set the record straight.  TMA is both unique and exceptionally informative.  It is the brainchild of Troy Goodfellow, not Rob Zacny.  It is my understanding that Troy couldn't continue on as the regular host because of a career move.  I have nothing against Rob Z, but he ain't no Troy Goodfellow.

[hexgrid]

As for the comments about who hosts the show, let's set the record straight.  TMA is both unique and exceptionally informative.  It is the brainchild of Troy Goodfellow, not Rob Zacny.  It is my understanding that Troy couldn't continue on as the regular host because of a career move.  I have nothing against Rob Z, but he ain't no Troy Goodfellow.

 

    Would you want him to be?  One of the reasons why this podcast is actually interesting is that all the people involved bring their own perspective and ideas, and they often don't entirely agree.  I'd listen to a podcast by any one of the 3MA regulars, but fortunately I usually get to listen to several of them concurrently.

[rle85048]

    Would you want him to be?  One of the reasons why this podcast is actually interesting is that all the people involved bring their own perspective and ideas, and they often don't entirely agree.  I'd listen to a podcast by any one of the 3MA regulars, but fortunately I usually get to listen to several of them concurrently.

What the hell are you talking about?  Did you even follow the thread?  No, you didn't, you just came in to yammer away with your meaningless pap.  Please provide a link to the "concurrent:" Rob Zacny podcast that he started that takes place "concurrently" with the TMA podcast that Troy Goodfellow started.  I get so sick and tired of brain-dead gamer doodes who yammer away and flap their gums without stopping to think.

[Gormongous]

What the hell are you talking about?  Did you even follow the thread?  No, you didn't, you just came in to yammer away with your meaningless pap.  Please provide a link to the "concurrent:" Rob Zacny podcast that he started that takes place "concurrently" with the TMA podcast that Troy Goodfellow started.  I get so sick and tired of brain-dead gamer doodes who yammer away and flap their gums without stopping to think.

 

What the hell, dude? Where do you get off talking like that to someone for expressing a perfectly legitimate opinion? He said he'd be fine with any Three Moves Ahead regular hosting the podcast, but luckily we have them all. I agree.