Depth Jam

[toblix]

So, Jonathan Blow, Chris Hecker, Daniel Benmergui and Marc ten Bosch had a game jam (click the links for their respective write-ups.) I just read Blow's article, which is part an account of the event, and part a criticism of what sort of events are being held today. Jonathan Blow seems like this super wound-up guy that holds himself and everyone he meets to a very high standard. I've never met him, but I'm pretty sure he already hates me.

[vimes]

As a way of conjuring experts and pushing boundaries, Depth Jam probably works very well.

But it caters to a very, very specific audience: solo developers who are both highly experienced and highly skilled and who are facing very specific issues in games driven by a single, all powerful creative vision.

I have about none of those characteristics and I'll be using indie game jam to testbed ideas that are incompatible with my employer's profile.

But good for them, those guys put themselves in a position where they need this kind of gathering and it's cool that they are creating scaffolding for their future growth.

[Murdoc]

Jonathan Blow seems like this super wound-up guy that holds himself and everyone he meets to a very high standard.

Thats funny because I respect his design decisions but everything else about the one game I played made me feel like it was super contrived manufactured pretension, so the comment doesn't suprise me.

Thanks for the link, never knew this existed.

[mikemariano]

Hecker:

In some important ways, the Depth Jam is a reaction to the idea and execution of game jams in the game industry today. Game jams are shallow by design. You come in, you make some games, you're done.

AKA: What Would Molydon't

[youmeyou]

Calling game jams shallow is kind of missing the point. No one ever made the claim that game jams should result in finished fleshed out games. I'd say a game jam is more designed to allow many people to attack many problems at once in a kind of dense slurry of creativity. What comes out of that is indeed, a stronger sense of community, a better grasp of game design and workflow, a better understanding of why a game should be made and what makes you passionate about game design.

Also Blow's opinion that he can't learn anything from neophytes really makes him come off as incredibly pretentious. You can learn things from anyone if you're actually interested in having a discussion.

[Chris]

Calling game jams shallow is kind of missing the point. No one ever made the claim that game jams should result in finished fleshed out games. I'd say a game jam is more designed to allow many people to attack many problems at once in a kind of dense slurry of creativity. What comes out of that is indeed, a stronger sense of community, a better grasp of game design and workflow, a better understanding of why a game should be made and what makes you passionate about game design.

It's not missing the point. It's just a different point. Game jams ARE shallow. That doesn't make them worthless. You aren't really contesting Blow's point, you're just pointing out that you and Blow are interested in game jams for different reaosns.

Also Blow's opinion that he can't learn anything from neophytes really makes him come off as incredibly pretentious. You can learn things from anyone if you're actually interested in having a discussion.

Of course you can, but at a certain point you have to make a call as to whether a particular event is likely to be worth the time necessary to devote to it. I've been to a lot of game developer meetups and I think Blow is entirely right. I'm not even a particularly experienced game developer but I still find that most meetups are largely attended by non-industry folks who are looking to break into the industry--which is totally fine, and I still enjoy those meetings when I go usually, but I enjoy them for the social aspects. And even though I enjoy those aspects, and even though I'm not that experienced, I STILL usually wish they were more substantial. Blow is correct that they aren't generally useful for the reason they often COULD be useful. You can't attend every single event in the world, so you need some rubric by which to decide which ones you're going to invest your time in. He's speaking from a certain perspective, and I think he explains his perspective perfectly well.

Remember, as he points out, he's been going to GDC since 1996 (longer than the vast majority of people in the game industry have been in this career at all), and he's been instrumental in multiple GDC institutions. It's not as if he's just showing up for a game dev meet up for the first time and declaring it worthless. He has nearly two decades of exposure to this stuff, and I think it's more than fair for him to determine at this point that most of the existing jams and meetups (very few of which make any real effort to be deep or substantial) are no longer very appropriate for what he is looking to learn and improve.

[SiN]

The Internet: calling smart people pretentious since 2009.

[youmeyou]

Interesting points, Chris. It does make sense that coming from Blow's perspective you'd want something other than a game jam or conf. I guess he's not really saying game jams have no use at all, just none for him and game designers like him.

[Nachimir]

I think a lot of Jon's criticisms of events are spot on. Especially as an event organiser, it's not awkward to read in the way he claims at all, though it might be if I was entrenched in running conferences exactly the way they've always been run.

All three of them are interestingly open about the shortcomings of their approach this time too. As they have it, it's rarified: Designers you admire, a collection of games that are pretty far from well known and explored mechanics. I wonder to what extent a typical group of indie developers and games would benefit from anything similar?

[Lu]

Interesting points, Chris. It does make sense that coming from Blow's perspective you'd want something other than a game jam or conf. I guess he's not really saying game jams have no use at all, just none for him and game designers like him.

I get the sneaking suspicion that you did not actually read what Blow wrote.

All three of them are interestingly open about the shortcomings of their approach this time too. As they have it, it's rarified: Designers you admire, a collection of games that are pretty far from well known and explored mechanics. I wonder to what extent a typical group of indie developers and games would benefit from anything similar?

Worth finding out. First thought is that there'd have to be a level of expertise and understanding of design for something like that to be useful. What I'd really like more than anything is, if next time they did this, they actually record some of the discussions going on. Having thoughtful, articulate people actually talk about real design issues for their games, dot dot dot.

[toblix]

Yeah, they should record it and put it online. They could call it the Depth Jam... safe. Or bunker. Or something. I'd pay for it.

[Nachimir]

Worth finding out.

First thought is that there'd have to be a level of expertise and understanding of design for something like that to be useful. What I'd really like more than anything is, if next time they did this, they actually record some of the discussions going on. Having thoughtful, articulate people actually talk about real design issues for their games, dot dot dot.

I'd love for this to be an approach to game post-mortems, with video filmed so far in advance. There are designers I know that would definitely be interesting subjects for this, though I also wonder: Running cameras well would probably be a distraction for any of the developers there. Would having someone there dedicated to filming solve that, or would the reality-tv ish nature of that put a damper on it? Maybe if they took a vow of silence, or a vow to just observe rather than direct.

Edit: One of the first comparisons I thought of when they outlined their arrangement at the beach house was a ski lodge. I think with a rigourous commitment to non-interference, having the analogue of a chalet-person to do food and filming might really make this work. Hmm. Hmm…

[Forbin]

I started writing some stuff, then decided to read through Heckers article as well, and found my post in an string of nonsense.

Basically, I think what these guys are looking for was never really a good fit for game jams. Building a game in a couple days is about building a game in a couple days, not furthering game design (as Hecker put it). I've definitely seen some amazing game concepts come out of jams, but to me they've always been about celebrating games as an applied field. They're about getting over paralysis and just building something. Trying out ideas, rather than dismissing them.

While Depth Jam sounds like an amazing thing to participate in, I really enjoy the current trajectory game jams are on. I want bigger, crazier, and more people discovering that they can make something fun.

[vogon]

I started writing some stuff, then decided to read through Heckers article as well, and found my post in an string of nonsense.

Basically, I think what these guys are looking for was never really a good fit for game jams. Building a game in a couple days is about building a game in a couple days, not furthering game design (as Hecker put it). I've definitely seen some amazing game concepts come out of jams, but to me they've always been about celebrating games as an applied field. They're about getting over paralysis and just building something. Trying out ideas, rather than dismissing them.

While Depth Jam sounds like an amazing thing to participate in, I really enjoy the current trajectory game jams are on. I want bigger, crazier, and more people discovering that they can make something fun.

I'm gonna argue that they're both valuable, and they're both necessary, for different reasons.

traditional game jams are a shotgun; they are many, many groups of people throwing ideas against a wall to see what sticks -- or, even, just to see if they can fully realize them and at least get something interesting done.

the Depth Jam is a sniper rifle; it's a few, very small groups frantically iterating on ideas they already know (or at least think strongly) are good, to try and get a solid chunk of gameplay out of it for their "real" game designs.

people who want ideas and a creative spark should participate in traditional game jams. people who have ideas but don't know how to make them into a game that they actually want to sell should go to a Depth Jam.