MGS3: Fail? :(

[ThunderPeel2001]

Hmmm.

Let me just say this: I LOVE the Metal Gear series. (I even bothered to play and complete Metal Gear!) I loved Metal Gear Solid and recently replayed the Twin Snakes version. I LOVED Metal Gear Solid 2... but! Although everyone seems to generally agree that MGS3 is a huge pile of awesome, I feel a bit let down by it so far...

It's definitely not ALL bad, but here's what's bugging me so far:

Firstly, what's up with the lame Bond wannabe opening sequence? Is it supposed to be a clever homage since this game takes place in the 60s? It just didn't feel like MGS to me. The tone seems wrong. In fact, the tone of the entire game feels very different... almost too different from what I was expecting

The gameplay is has changed, too. The game is incredibly unforgiving. If you get seen (and there's no radar this time) you're amazingly screwed - it's practically game over. Also, what's with the tedious "Disinfectant + Stitches + Sutures + Bandages" every time you want to increase your health? (Also, crawling around and stabbing frogs for food?) It seems like an idiotic system.

I even miss the Codec calls... it seems so lonely this time around.

I haven't liked some of the plot choices so far, either. PLEASE tell me that wasn't a young Revolver Ocelot who has crossed my path early on? It's SO lame that the two of them would have fought before but not remember each other in the later games. I mean, how can he be younger in this game but older in the others?

When Eve is about to shoot him, Snakes stop her saying "he's young". She replies, "You'll come to regret that". Yikes... Is Hideo suddenly pro-capital punishment? I know it may just be one of those things that's not supposed to be examined, but if he was, THAT'S how you'd get your point across in a clumsy manner: Don't shoot and kill the bad people now, and years later they'll be a massive pain in your backside.

Finally, for a series that prides itself in taking science, pseudo-science and bollocks and mixing them all up, there seems to be a lot more bollocks to science this time.

*sigh*

On the plus side, it's certainly not all bad. The story is VERY strong. The mixture of fact and fiction (with the Cuban Missile Crisis etc.) is utterly brilliant and very atmospheric. Wonderfully done.

I've only just started the second mission (Operation Snake Eater), so I'm very early into the game and hopefully these shocks due to the changes will pass. But it's just so... different. *sob*

Will it get better?

[Thrik]

It does get better, as it sounds like all you've played so far is the prologue. There's plenty in the extensive remainder of the game that has more in common with past MGS games, including huge indoor/base areas that have no jungle elements whatsoever. Also, after the prologue you do get a variety of people to talk to via the radio which is effectively identical to the codec conversations of old (which I also love — they really build the atmosphere IMO).

I'll agree that it's definitely a much more difficult game, although it's not too bad once you get the hang of using the various ways to disarm enemies (which is encouraged more this time). It sounds daft but it actually seems kind of easy once you master certain tricks for disabling people, which is why on my eventual third replay I'm definitely playing it on hard.

One of the most critical things I hilariously didn't discover until towards the end of the game is that if you approach a guy and then hit circle plus a direction, you'll perform a CQC move on him that knocks him out instantly. You can even do this if he spots you, as long as you can run towards him quickly enough to pull it off before he shoots you or gets backup. I've had Rambo-like showdowns doing this before, ducking between cover and coming out of nowhere to knock a guy's face into the ground before vanishing as they focus their attention on where I was (there're some very big areas with very dense vegetation later on).

One thing's for sure, don't give up on the game. Story- and character-wise you've only hit the tip of the iceberg in the prologue, and it does evolve into a very memorable experience. I don't think you've even encountered any bosses yet?

It did take me a while before I thought "Fuck me, this might be my favourite MGS game yet". It sounds weird but I appreciated the earlier stuff more once I'd gotten further in, and when I replayed it the whole thing was much more fruitful because I knew all sorts of tricks and things I didn't know before.

By the end of the game I found it hard to choose between it and MGS1 when specifying a favourite, and I still do.

[toblix]

Timing? More like blimey! I'm just hours away from giving MGS3 another go.

[Cigol]

Remember, you're playing the origin story for 'Big Boss', you're not Solid Snake in this one.

I think a lot of the problems with Snake Eater result from poor realisation of potentially interesting theory. Having to survive in the jungle by living off its many offerings sounds ace to me, as does having to treat various wounds and injuries (and their effects impacting upon your performance). But the difficulty in implementing this in a meaningful and entertaining manner was obviously too much for them, and what we get instead is frustrating, painful and jarring.

I liked the introduction myself, and whilst the game is different you should get used to it eventually. keep playing, you'll appreciate it.

[Thrik]

Yeah I will say that the healing stuff was a bit annoying, although it's definitely a good incentive to not get yourself hurt.

There is a harsher learning curve with MGS3 than its predecessors (unless you played those on hard, which was quite seriously mental), but there're also many more ways to evade and dispatch enemies. Ideally you won't be spending too much time sorting yourself out in the menu.

Often in MGS1 or MGS2 you'd be absolutely wrecked upon a full-blown alert, while in MGS3 you can actually fight or evade your way out if you go for it.

[DanJW]

Yes, as mentioned you are not Solid Snake, you are Naked Snake. The sneaking gameplay is very frustrating when you first start (seriously, consider playing it on easy for a while then restarting if you want to play on normal or hard). Once you get the knack of it though it is much deeper and more rewarding. Same goes for the combat.

In itself the food thing is pretty tiresome, but I enjoyed playing it as a collectibles game, seeing how many different species I could find. Plus there's fun to be had throwing live snakes, spiders, poisoned food etc at enemies.

It's an awesome game. By the end you will love it.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Thanks guys, that's precisely what I wanted to hear Phew!

Yes, as mentioned you are not Solid Snake, you are Naked Snake.

Huh?

The Future president of the United States (as mentioned in MGS2)? Or was that a different Snake? If this is a totally different Snake, then that definitely helps things. Again, phew!

[DanJW]

Maybe it will be more fun for you to find out who you are at the end of the game

[toblix]

Okay, so I've started over and I'm back where I gave up the last time, the first house where the professor is being held. I'm still amazed at how much my vision feels hindered by the controls. Till now I've just tried sneaking from one patch of grass to the next, being discovered and running to the next zone. Hopefully I'll get it this time.

[DanJW]

Just remember patience and timing. Although it is possible to hide in plain sight, you still need to time your movements when they are not going to see you. And use your various looking-around options as much as possible - first person camera, peeking round corners, sonar, binoculars etc. At some point it will 'click' for you and suddenly seem much more natural.

Especially when early on in the game there are routes that make it easy to avoid sentries (for instance underneath the house, round the backs of trees and so on).

[Cigol]

Are you playing the subsistence version? I thought that had a nice new viewing angle to help with the difficulty of moving around. I had to play the original and it was tough going, you get used to it, but there's no point ignoring the jarring sense that the game is doing a Resident Evil on your ass for no apparent reason (it has a first person view mode for godsake).

[Thrik]

Yeah I can't actually imagine playing it without the fully rotatable Subsistence camera to be honest. The fixed camera is fine for the indoor parts, but some of the outdoor jungle bits are so big and have so many places for enemies to be you really need to be able to look around properly. Seems more immersive too.

Not game-ruining of course, but I can see it making it just that bit more tricky. I'd imagine you just need to take it a bit more slowly and use the first-person view more to get a handle on your surroundings.

[toblix]

I'm playing Subsistence, and the new camera is definitely better than the old (I toggle between the old and new modes by clicking R3, right?)

I'm bothered by not being able to look properly around me when crawling in the grass. I guess it's realistic (they can't see me because I can't see them sort of thing), but I'm getting the same feeling I got when clinging to the wall in the first Splinter Cell. There should definitely be a "poke your head above the grass" button or something.

[Thrik]

Press down both analogue sticks together to stand on tip-toes. Works in grass too if I remember correctly (Although that'd be more of a push-up I guess!).

[toblix]

This game is seriously the mother of games with a unique action bound to every possible key combination, and no tutorial. It astounds me that the MGS games are so popular and mainstream.

[Thrik]

Teee.

It must teach you at some point because there's no way I'd have found that by myself, but I can't remember where. I think it does the usual MGS trick of feeding hints subtly via codec, which you can obviously miss if you don't bother with the code chats beyond the mandatory ones (although usually the control teachings are mandatory convos).

Still, yeah, you're right — MGS does have a huge assortment of controls and tricks. It makes it a real bitch to learn, although I do think it's ace once you understand them all and are rolling all sorts of intricate moves off like some kind of nutter.

[ThunderPeel2001]

Subsistence for £25/$40?! That's a pretty good price! (NTSC version)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Metal-Gear-Solid-3-Subsistence-Playstation-2-RARE_W0QQitemZ160266528105QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Metal-Gear-Solid-3-Subsistence-Playstation-2-3-PS2-PS3_W0QQitemZ110275023689QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Metal-Gear-Solid-3-Subsistence-Playstation-2-3-PS2-PS3_W0QQitemZ120288690222QQcmdZViewItem

[toblix]

Still, yeah, you're right — MGS does have a huge assortment of controls and tricks. It makes it a real bitch to learn, although I do think it's ace once you understand them all and are rolling all sorts of intricate moves off like some kind of nutter.

Yeah, that's the awesome part of control-heavy games, feeling like some ninja. However, I prefer games that have simple controls but still manage to give the illusion of elite skill. I can't remember it now, but there was one game I considered the fucking pinnacle of using almost no buttons but still making me feel as if though I had honed my skills in this particular game over the course of decades.

[toblix]

Okay, so I just finished the first mission. Man, was that short (I realised it was more of an intro, like the falling through floors in FoA). Anyway, this is how I did it:

1. I snuck around some.
   
2. I got discovered.
   
3. I hid behind a crate and knocked all the guys out as they came running to me.
   
4. Since I'm playing on Very Easy, I seem to be invincible. I can be shot at for five minutes without dying, it's ridiculous.

Basically, I've been playing it like some lame shooter, and not a sneaker at all. It's so weird, I remember becoming engrossed in MGS2 almost right away, sneaking around like a pro, but in this game I always get spotted, because I can't see! By the way, the tip-toe thing didn't work.

So, is the rest of the game much like the intro gameplay? Sneaking around in the jungle, I mean?

Oh, and is there a way to pause the movies?

[DanJW]

As someone said already, there is a good mix of environments in the game.

I think the pull-up/press-up peek might be both shoulder buttons. There is a way to do it anyway and it makes it easier to see around, especially in the long grass which is where I spent a lot of my time. I'm also surprised that between the classic camera and the follow-cam you can't find a viewpoint which suits you. I played it in classic camera (didn't have subsistance) but I checked first-person and used the binocs a lot.

It is perfectly possible to get through without being spotted, obviously, by planning movement and using camo and facepaint properly (although the end of Virtuous Mission is always a bit harder than I think it should be). But I don't think there's any more advice anyone can give you. Either you're going to figure it out for yourself at this point, or you're not I hope you do.

How about you Thunderpeel, how you doing?

--

edit: I've been playing MGS: Integral for the first time. Unfortunately it seems the PC version crashes on modern machines when you get half way through the Psycho Mantis battle. Searching for a fix now.

Funny what you said about not being able to see anything Toblix, because that's how I feel. I also feel incredibly clumsy and restricted in this game compared to Snake Eater, but then it's an old game so there I go.

[ThunderPeel2001]

I thought MGS: Integral has 1st first mode, which pretty much makes it the same as Snake Eater, camera wise... or did you mean all the extra moves that are missing?

Well, I finished The Twin Snakes over the weekend. Enjoyable to play the old "classic" once again, especially when you get past some of the annoyances. The ending isn't quite as strong as MGS2's, but it's still good stuff.

There were three Snakes made from Big Boss: Solid (yay), Liquid (boo! hiss!) and Solidus (also known as President Baker(!)). It's revealed that Solid's "real" name is David! That means that Jack/Naked Snake is, of course, a completely different Snake... I really should pay more attention. Especially considering that Snake is a rookie at the beginning of Metal Gear, which is set in 1995... a tad later than 1965!

As for Snake Eater, I found it as difficult as Toblix. The Virtuous Mission was pretty damned hard/annoying and I do feel that, even on Very Easy, there was little or no guidance. I always tried to keep my camo 85%+, but I still got spotted. I suppose I really need to hone my skills before moving on.

I'm three hours in at the moment, but I might restart on Easy as I kind of think that Very Easy alters the gameplay away from how it was designed (you get an unlimited ammo "EZ" gun, for example, rather than more lenient baddies - or so it seems). Even on Very Easy alerts don't disappear from screen to screen, your silencer still breaks, your batteries still run down... It's pretty hardcore for an MGS game.

It sort of feels like "Metal Gear Solid: Back to basics/make it real", which is an idea I'm slowly warming to, provided I manage to get better at it!

If I have time, I'll pick it up tonight.

[DanJW]

Oh I just thought of something! Aren't there training missions in the extras menu? The advanced ones are very useful as there's pretty much no other way of discovering the less obvious techniques.

[geiger]

I started into MGS3 yesterday, after playing it a couple of times since I bought it in '06. I haven't had much time for gaming lately but the previous times I'd played MGS3 I was rubbish. Same story this time around. I've tried the virtuous mission I don't know how many times but I can never do it stealthily. The camera angle does cause some problems but even still I don't feel like I 'get it'. It's really annoying because I don't want to blast my way through it so I haven't saved my game yet. Anyway, good to see it's not just me having trouble

[toblix]

Oh I just thought of something! Aren't there training missions in the extras menu? The advanced ones are very useful as there's pretty much no other way of discovering the less obvious techniques.

I haven't checked myself, but from what I can dig up on Google, there aren't.

[Thrik]

There are, yeah. There're videos that demonstrate each move somewhere in the menu, although I can't remember exactly where. Could be extras, which'd imply it's a Subsistence-only thing. Maybe it isn't, though!

I remember only discovering them towards the end of the game, which is why I didn't discover CQC until then.

I'd actually forgotten about them again until you just mentioned them. They are good, so definitely check those out if you're finding the moves/etc tricky.