Roderick

The commentary does it, I have to play the game.

See, this is exactly what happens when stupid people get access to videocameras and the internet, and feel entitled and superior.

Ooh, that's a very elegant and interesting definition. I really like it. If I boil it down a little crudely, am I right in saying art is more about the process, rather than the end product? It's more about the thought that went into it than the actual result? That does make it difficult to decide what is art and not (so in the actual discussion the definition is still a tricky one), but at least it does make it clear what the distinction is between art and 'craft' or something that might not reach it. Another problem (and I'm not trying to knock the definition here, just testing it out) is that a lot of things that are made as entertainment sport complex emotions and deep thoughts at their base as well. A series like Battlestar Galactica wrestles with deeply human conflicts and feelings. Even Pirates of the Caribbean is an exploration of man's desire for greatness and adventure (as are 99% of all movies). I will grant a person like Ebert that a lot (but not all) games are made on a more technical level, not exploring something from a human perspective, but rather from a gameplay-technical one, which according to this definition would make them not art. Worse perhaps is that a lot of crap drawings on Deviantart might fall under the category of art as well, unless you might review the 'depth' of the emotional process that went into its creation and draw a line somewhere there. So, I'd love to hear what you think about this, Stevan. So far it's been incredibly elucidating. (As a sidenote, one of the reasons museums often hold no interest to me is in their consistent failure to provide some context to the paintings. Ideally, I'd like a few paragraphs with every object explaining (or perhaps hinting at, so as to leave some room for interpretation) intentions, background, history.) (Miffy, I think I agree with Stevan on the matter, in the sense that I see his definition as actually quite objective, quite impersonal. So it makes perfect sense from my viewpoint as an outsider trying to grapple with the term art.)

Hoooooooly crap. That was amazing. Especially the title song.

^ Best I would like to liken art more to something like god, or any other Lewis Caroll-like nonsense term.

I find Kingz' response actually pretty cool and I appreciate it. Though, I guess, now I'm roped into the discussion, so let's do this thing. Now first off, I think there's way more to it than the oval-story. My complaint about the term art is way more legitimate. It's pretty clear what an oval is, you'd have to get insanely anal to get to an argument about whether something is an oval or a circle (despite it being a fantastic anecdote, Pavlov was apparently a really cool guy). When it comes to art however, it IS a clusterfuck of massive proportions. Like I said, I have never, ever come across someone who could give me a proper description of what it was, without any caveats, that didn't contradict with what was actually happening or every other description. And yet everyone uses the term as if it is perfectly clear (to them?) what it means. So yes, I am fighting windmills here. It is a supremely academic attempt to expunge the term art from our culture. Very futile. But just because it's unorthodox and plain bizarre doesn't mean that it's stupid. I'm not trying to be pretentious about art or anything, I am way less pretentious -especially nowadays- than people generally think I am. I'm genuinely baffled by the term art. Now, I know a fair bit of art history, and I also know that the lines used to be much sharper in the past (in the West at least), when it was obvious that art was an aesthetic principle that applied to such things as painting, sculptures and architecture. The 20th century, with its pop-art, dada and fluxus, destroyed those boundaries. I think I described the problem pretty well in my rant. Now, since my problem is with the term art (not with the existence or appreciation of meaningful works falling under its category), it might be a good idea to start by asking: what is the definition of art?

Your statement presumes that there IS such a thing as art, which is the very thing that I'm disputing.

To be fair, my rant was not aimed at art itself, which I frequently will loathe or enjoy, but the terminology, which in my opinion isn't specific at all, but is used almost always as if it is. The use and abuse of the term, that's my beef. Not with 'art' itself. I wouldn't presume to cast generalized comments on it. In that sense, I am not at all in the same league as Ebert, who is including or excluding media at the merest whim. I'm not drawing lines at all, only pointing out that the people who do that use terminology that is impossible to decipher and therefore their arguments are crap. Ergo, I do not suck.

That's crazy! Thankfully no one got hurt, I believe.

This fringe world exists, it is called 'internet' Taking it a little more serious though, I strongly get the feeling that the world of art and couture have become so far removed from anything else that they have little impact on 'real' culture. They exist in extremely isolated, incestuous bubbles. When was the last time you saw something outrageous on the catwalk actually trickle down to anything worn on the street? Maybe that's not the point of it (probably not), but at least that side of the 'experimental fringe' can be safely considered moot. (And thanks for the support, gentlemen!)

Ahahaha, his eyes are working the magic!

This shows two things. One is that Ebert is no longer part of our times. He has started to lag behind, his view of the world constricted to 20th century thinking, so to speak. Games can't be 'art'? It'll take longer than a lifetime for the medium to develop into an 'art phase'? This is the purest, unsubstantiated trashtalk, based on nothing whatsoever except the flimsiest comparison to how other media developed centuries ago. It also shows how little Ebert knows about how things develop nowadays, how much of an impact the internet has made on the world, how fast things shift in and out of our culture. He's unmasked as a dinosaur. Secondly, it once again shows how utterly useless the term 'art' is to describe anything, because it's so personal, so impossible to capture in any clear definition. I recently wrote a rant on this and I'll post it here behind spoilers if you're interested.

The sense of loss at having your game box filled with junk is appreciated, that's that's why big releases often have luxurious collector's editions that take care of that urge. As for all the rest, I will applaud every step towards gaming becoming a purely digital affair without any physical form at all consuming resources and living space. Same goes for books, which will inevitably become objets d'art whenever they're still in physical form. Of course, it's a crime if that decrease in production cost does then not lead to a decrease of consumer price. If Ubisoft is so intent on doing the right thing, that should be included in the package.

It would at least decrease the viking threat with some 80%.

Not directly, insofar as we won't go extinct because a shroud will cover Europe in a blanket of darkness for the next three years. I am postponing any hysteria until I actually see the fog of war descending upon me though.

It's not new, but is still the best sketch. KJh0pDMnL8M

Look at me being all cheeky and stuff! And here's me in my new kendo armour which I wore yesterday evening for the first time. It was such a rush, I couldn't sleep afterwards.

Moonshine Mindy or Shanghai Simon

Shooter McGavin

Nice. But you could try kendo, as it has -as Sean Connery would say- S-words.

That was the same guy!

Back into your gi? So you practiced some Japanese budo sport as well?

I would be incapable of getting a PS3 just for this game.

OK, here's the plan. I can take my 360 with me to my office where there's a fast connection. Then I can just play here all evening, no problem. Get a gold account, easy. Would only work if our sessions are during the evening.

(Wizard King)