SiN

Also, just for fun, is this the Apple media BIAS you were talking about? http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/06/29/iphone-turns-5-here-are-the-naysayers/

What you said to prompt this discussion was: That's a very different statement than:

So are you now saying "It was at worst on par with the iPod"? Or it was better? Or it shat all over the iPod? If you don't believe the Zune "shit all over" the iPod (whatever that means) then perhaps this discussion has been in vain. No proof. But I mentioned a bunch of devices that did perfectly alright despite the tech media being heavily BIAS against them. The build-up to the DS/PSP being the one I remember the most vividly.

So I'm reaaaally trying to not be a jerk here, but man are you making this difficult. This. If you don't see 30% as a problem then, as you said, that speaks volumes. It certainly speaks to where both our priorities lie, yes. This also, but I'm actually making a stronger argument: I'm arguing that the Zune didn't fail because of media BIAS, or because it was a particularly terrible device. It failed because it wasn't a remarkable improvement over the incumbent, and the reviews reflected that. If you're 5 years late to the party, being competent isn't good enough. The Zune was a thicker (and yes, uglier) device, with a very young "ecosystem", no price advantage, and didn't have feature-parity with the iPod. It was competent sure, and better in some technical aspects too, but it wasn't remarkable in any way. It turns out "normal" people don't really care about minor technical improvements (this includes: better sound quality, HD radio, the ejecting thing). They don't care you can't really blame them for it. They *will* sit up and notice remarkable innovations though, even if the product does have shortcomings that would send tech journalists into a fit (again, see: iPod, iPhone, iPad, Wii, Kinect). (to be fair, I'd call Zune Pass pretty damn remarkable, but again, it takes more than that when you're 5 years late to the party!) Sure. So how about that Microsoft Surface then, eh?!

Me, 10 seconds ago: Me, a couple of days ago: *ahem* so it's possible I argued the Zune was a terrible device by calling it "pretty crappy". But! I was referring to the overall build quality, which ... well, it wasn't bad, but it wasn't great either. For this, I apologize. I don't think that changes my argument above though.

An easy mistake to make, but you compared the Zune30 to the iPod 80GB. Here's a better comparison shot: (left to right: iPod 5th gen 30GB, iPod 5th gen 80GB and, I believe, the Zune30) *Big* difference IMO. @TheLastBaron: to clarify, I was saying the Zune30 doesn't have a velocity sensitive scroll wheel. Honestly, apart from the crap build quality, I think the squircle is a pretty genius UI. If Microsoft launched with the flash Zunes they would have stood a better chance. On quality, I had two flash Zunes, both died on me within a year. The backlight died on one, and the battery died (well, 15 minute life) on the other. Microsoft Canada refused to fix them for me because I bought them from the States. :/ Every iPod (Classic 5th gen, touch), iPhone (3GS, 4S) and iPad (1st, 3rd gen) I've owned are still in great condition. (or so members of family who now own them have informed me ). I didn't mention any of that because it's all anecdotal. --- On the interface, it's hard to have a "right" answer. But I'll say that if the Zune had a remarkably better (or even marginally better) interface it would have succeeded. The original iPod didn't succeed because of press reviews, or on specs, or on price (lol), it succeeded because it had an excellent, usable interface. And, well, because it shit all over the competition. As for the review BIAS (new rule: it *has* to be all-caps for the rest of this thread), I read Pogue's review, and uhhhh: This doesn't sound like entirely unreasonable criticism. (aside: re the iPad 3, if the Zune was a bit thicker and heavier but had the greatest screen mankind has ever witnessed, I think Pogue would have let it slide ) Again, the reason Apple gets away with this shit is because they build things that are *remarkably* better than the competition. You can skimp on features if your product is revolutionary (see iPhone, or even Wii). But if your product is marginally better than the competition in some aspects, then all the little things really do matter. With the Zune, I'm not arguing it was a terrible device, but all the little things make it hard to recommend over an iPod.

I loved Lego when I was younger! I want to get back into it, but I keep procrastinating. :/ I never really liked the sets though. Or rather, I did until I got one. I begged my parents like crazy for the "BIG PIRATE SHIP PLEASE PLEASE PLEAAAASE!!!!" and they eventually got me ... the small pirate ship. Which was good enough for me. But I put the thing together in no time (the base of the ship was just two massive pieces that was held together by smaller bricks) and ... that was it. I repurposed some of the parts, but mostly went back to my older Legos. My Dad, being the genius he is, then decided to do The Right Thing: he got me a pretty large bucket of assorted Legos. And really, that's what I loved most about Lego. Building random stuff out of random bricks. Some of it had a point, but a lot of it was random structures (MODERN ART IF YOU WILL!!). I want to buy Legos now, not to collect sets, but to go back to the important job of Building Random Shit.

Oh snap, you're totally right. I always perceived it to be bulky, but I guess it wasn't. It is around 20% thicker, so maybe that's where I got it from? But Zune optimized for the wrong operation. iPods, even the video, was still primarily a music playing device. So was the Zune. Making a smaller device to support the 80/90% action makes sense. The Zune got caught up in winning the spec game, but it focused on the wrong specs. The reason why the iPod touch can justify the big screen is because it does so much more than just play videos. Safari alone justifies it, never mind Video games. (edit: this is really weird, but the forum won't let me write video-games as a single word! what type of cruel joke/bug is this?!?!) I hear this kind of thing a lot, but faster != easier. The iPod gave you a very clear hierarchy, and a very simple interface to scroll through it. (that the scroll wheel reacted to velocity was particularly genius). The Zune gave you this two-dimensional "space" to navigate. Faster? Yes. Easier? Nope. PEDANTIC FACTUAL CORRECTION MODE: the auto-pause thing was on iPod first. Apart from that, yeah, some cool stuff for sure. (didn't know about the magnetized headphones thing!) The Zune service had it easy because the record companies were desperate for competition. If Apple could, they would have gotten rid of DRM sooner. Zune Pass was/is awesome. But here's the thing: at what point does the Zune shit all over the iPod? I'm not just being a pedantic jerk here, it's an important distinction. For the Zune to succeed, it couldn't just be a little better than the iPod. It had to be much, much better. Let me put it to you like this: the iPod shit all over the Creative Nomad. The iPhone shit all over the Blackberry. Do you think the comparison between the Zune and iPod is that stark? Honestly, I'll take your word regarding the reviews, but like I said above, it really doesn't matter. Tech journalists bet on the wrong horse with hilarious frequency. The point is that the Zune was never going to succeed because it did way too little, way too late. What bothers me is that Microsoft can do so much better. My favourite example is the response to the Wii. They came way, way late to the party, but holy shit was Kinect something else! I don't even think it's any good, but I respect that it was a way out there, incredibly innovative device. And guess what? The reviews, for the most part, ripped it apart. Didn't stop it from selling 8 million units in no time.

Ah right, the Zune30 didn't have the touch sensitive pad. I've noticed this too, makes me sad. Basically, smartphones do a million things at once now, so this shit happens (occasionally for me). Never happened on my older iPods. Agreed. Although the Zune software never installed on my laptop, so I never spent much time with it. But yeah, iTunes is awful, even on OSX. And here's where I need to disagree. Honestly, I hate doing this, but I get so frustrated at the "lol apple bias" and/or "apple makes shitty products that they market really well" stance. (not saying you did the latter) Straight up, Apple is successful because they make good products. So I check the wiki. Zune30 came out in Nov 2006. At that time, the iPod Classic (5th gen) was the same price, many times smaller, thinner and lighter, and came in an 80 GB model as well. The Zune80 came out a year later. The flash Zunes came out a month after the iPod Nano (3rd gen) again at the same price. The ZuneHD came out *two* years after the iPod touch, and one year after the App Store opened. At what point, exactly, did the Zune shit all over the iPod?

Kim Swift said the game isn't designed for kids per se, but for parents to play with their kids. Which is totally cool in my books. I don't think they pull it off perfectly, but honestly, I'd rather this than cheap-o Portal lab-rat imitation and/or MODERN WAR setting. (although spatial puzzler + MODERN WAR setting would be kinda hilarious) Yup, this a million times.

Having owned two Zunes (don't ask), it really wasn't any better. The squircle is a great hardware interface, but it was so cheap that I kept getting false positive inputs. That really ruined the rest of the well thought software UI for me. The rest of the device was pretty crappy as well. The Zune HD is really nice, but the iPod touch came at around the same, so it was too little, too late. Also, tech journalists consistently pick the "technological superior" over more usable devices. And they're *always* painfully, painfully wrong. See also: - iPod vs more "fully functional" music players - iPhone vs smartphones with keyboards - iPad vs netbooks - DS vs PSP Given their track record, I wouldn't put much stock in the tech media's support.

I think people are generally being a bit too harsh on the game, mainly because of the inevitable Portal comparisons. The concept and execution aren't as elegant or rich as Portal, but it's up there. QC makes it especially easy to appreciate how incredible Valve's "polish indefinitely" method of development is. As it stands, there's a lack of polish everywhere from the narration, to the art work, to the level design. Specifically on level design, there are some great puzzle ideas, but they get repeated too many times over. And yeah, it does start off pretty slow, but when it picks up it's pretty enjoyable. Have to (partially) disagree on the artwork. Sure, it's a bit uninspired, but I find it charming. The art on the walls and the book names especially add some personality. Similar to the level design, there are some good ideas that get repeated too often. Given more time, I'm sure the team could have done more with it. Which is basically how I feel about the game on the whole. It's a good game with lots of potential, but a lack of polish (and development time, I bet) means it doesn't quite reach those great heights. But it's worth playing, especially for $15. Just don't go in expecting a Valve game.

Yeah, I was just going to mention Super Mario 3D Land. Definitely my favourite 3DS game. Also: if you're a lefty Kid Icarus is no fun. I bet the CPP would help, but I couldn't find one at a reasonable price.

The DSi XL *is* for old people, and Nintendo said as much. Personally, I love my mobile tech to be, well, mobile. So I never saw the appeal of a DSi XL. However, I use the 3DS almost exclusively at home. It's just not practical to play 3DS on my commute. Mostly because the 3D screen totally blows on a shaky bus, but also because the battery life kinda sucks. With that in mind, I'd actually consider getting a 3DS XL. As for the CPP, I'm pretty sure Nintendo have no intention of it being "a thing" beyond a peripheral for Monster Hunter. And rightly so, a second analog stick is *really* unnecessary for the kinds of games that work best on handheld systems. But man, you know what sucks? Being left handed and playing Circle Pad + Stylus 3DS games. I'd *kill* for a 3DS: Lefty Edition!

Agreed. However, the age old question applies here: "if a message box appears and no one is around to read it, does it convey its message?" (in other words, because UAC prompts happen so frequently, users stop reading & caring about it. On Mac, it occurs far less frequently, therefore users at least pay a bit more attention to it)

Yes, but OS X asks *far* less frequently because of the user/system separation. Windows is shoehorning The Right Thing To Do into their somewhat "wrong" system. OS X just got it right from the start.

For the record, my PC is just a glorified Steam Console. I do all my real computing on a Mac, which has a proper user/system separation. For Windows, I think (a) installing software from trusted sources only, and ( using a secure browser, will get you almost all the way. I get why UAC exists, and why it has to be the way it is, but it doesn't make it acceptable from a user's point of view. By giving the user a bunch of "ARE YOU SURE?!" prompts, Windows does not fix anything. Nobody ever reads these or presses No on them. All it does is absolve Windows from the consequences.

Yes, but it's toned down big time. People generally don't tinker with settings, especially in Control Panel. I obviously turned it off, but the majority of people wouldn't, despite the annoyance.

UAC.

It's different with Apple. Any common feature* always has two was to execute it: the obvious here's-a-massive-button-with-a-clear-title method, and the obscure flick-here-while-swiping-there method. The problem with Win8 is that in many cases they forgo the first method entirely. (* of course, "power features" are a different problem altogether)

Carmack is very vocally against patents, and none of their technologies have been patented in the past, so I don't expect MegaTextures to be any different.

The Internet: calling smart people pretentious since 2009.

If gamers have a problem with DLC that's fine (and they should vote with their wallets), but where the DLC "lives" is irrelevant. If gamers vote against on-disc DLC, then publishers will simply withhold their DLC for a month or two (or whatever gamers deem to be An Acceptable Period Of Time). Now I'm left needlessly waiting longer for more content, and eating bandwidth to store DLC on an overpriced 20 GB Xbox HDD. Who wins in the scenario exactly?

Woah, modern forum software! Love it! I have a tiny problem, but I'm not sure if anyone else feels the same way. I find the list of threads hard to read because the rows aren't clearly separated. A subtle row separator (like black 5% opacity border-bottom) would fit really well with the light theme. It'll make the list *much* easier to read, while still maintaining the clean look.

Many years ago (before I defected to Mac) I was looking for a solid full-size keyboard. I went to Futureshop and Best Buy, and looked at every keyboard. None of them had all the keys in the right place. Either the arrow keys were wrong, or the Insert "block" was 2x3 (instead of 3x2), or yes, the home key was missing (!!!), or there was no numpad, or something. What's worse, all the keys were spongy as hell. Then I passed by the Apple Wired Keyboard. It was, oddly enough, the best Windows keyboard I had found. All the keys were in the right place, the low profile felt ergonomic, and the keys have a satisfying (if a little shallow) click. The MacBook joined the keyboard (and iPod) only a couple of months later, and now I'm hopelessly drowning in Apple tech. (My mouse, on the other hand, is a simple two-button optical Microsoft mouse. I bought it to play Doom 3 on my then newly acquired laptop. It's lasted me ever since. I have no idea what I'm going to do if/when it dies on me. I ... try not to think about it)