jamesklambert

Wow. Just wow. I'm not "feeling" something; I'm making a fairly straightforward argument. When Person A says there is only one way for "reasonable people" to see X and Person B says that reasonable people can see X differently and still be reasonable, then Person B is not being unreasonable or unfair. And Person B doesn't need a time out to think about feelings. I suggest that others stop turning this into a narrative about me that isn't supported by what actually happened and, again, I wish I hadn't bothered to post in the first place. I came here to post about some ideas/questions that no one has responded to (see my first post) and ended up falling into this argument because I dared to say that the show isn't as clearly sexist as some make it out to be. P. S. I "singled" out one woman's arguments because I was being asked about (or reprimanded) about the points being made between myself and that woman. How is that wrong, bad, or negative?

BizzyDQ came into this discussion talking about, “things that could at this point read as blatant misogyny.” I simply tied to point out that those things could also be read as NOT blatant misogyny and there are other elements of the show that should be considered. BizzyDQ’s statements since then have been very absolute. It is, “ridiculous,” for the actress to be directed to walk that way. She was not walking, “like a person,” and it is, “not a choice a reasonable person who wants to be taken seriously by her peers would ever make.” There is no room for any other view here; she is simply right, period. I don’t see anything similar in what I have said. I have simply trying to point out how there is another way to see it. That a reasonable person can see it another way and still be reasonable. The only position I have asked her, and other to “conform” to, is that it is not as cut and dry as she makes it out to be. Why do I think that my position, “somehow carries a weight that other people's don't?” Because my position isn’t an absolutist one. And I really don’t understand why you fail to see the difference.

I'm not going to play this game. I have agreed that there is sexism in the show. I have simply pointed out it is not 100%, clearly "misogynistic," or even overwhelmingly so. I have tried to give several examples of other things that might be considered or seen differently by reasonable viewers. Rather than acknowledging my overall - glass is half empty, glass is half full - argument or 9 out of the 10 bullet points examples I gave, she focused on one and told me again how I'm clearly wrong, because "reasonable people" would only think the way she does. Now you are telling me that I'm not not being "intellectually flexible" because I am daring to say that reasonable people can see it differently? Sorry I bothered to post anything.

Because every "reasonable person" thinks exactly like you and always makes perfect choices, never impulsive ones? I simply tried to give you a number of ways of looking at this. You don't need to agree with everyone of them or any of them. I simply hoped to point out that reasonable people can disagree and maybe, just maybe, the show isn't as sexist as you are making it out to be. I hope you can see some validity in this, rather than simply looking for more things to object to.

I do not want to discount your feels/reactions here but I also do not want to make these things out to be undeniable facts, which can only be read one way. I fear that you are making a list of all the "bad" things, as you see them, and once you fill up the page you will be convinced that the show is what you worried it might be. Once you go down a road like that it is hard to turn back, because the cumulative effect continues to grow and block out anything else. Consider, just consider, that there are other factors and ways of looking at this: Lynch's work, like the majority of work out there, is male dominated, but this is particularly true for the themes that he generally deals with (i.e. evil, aggressive, disgusting people committing horrible, violent, and callous actions - the majority of which are committed by men in the real world). Lynch is acknowledging the base instincts of most heterosexal men while showing a clear contrast between those who abuse women and those who make an effort to be something better. They are not going to escape being men (Preston's walk is not going to go unnoticed) but they are going to choose how they behave (Albert comments on it, as he shouldn't, while Cole does not, but neither are giving any indication that they are less liking to give her work or expect her to do a bad job or expect anything outside of work from her). Albert may be insensitive to workplace etiquette (commenting on Preston's walk) but he also knows her well enough to know she gets car sick and does not seem to be indifferent to her suffering, just as he's not indifferent to Cole's desire to see Mount Rushmore, despite his reputation for being a heartless jerk. Why is Preston's walk "ridiculous?" Have you never known a woman who looks like a runway model and chooses to play it up at some moments by playing the part? Why does it have to be a bad thing here? Maybe she's feeling disrespected and wants them to take a good look at what they will never have. Is it the best choice in the workplace? No. Is it a choice someone might make? Yes. The action that I loved from Preston is her hand wave in the car when the driver suddenly stops because he thinks the big-wig in the back is sick. Without saying a word she is letting him know that it's not all about Cole and he should keep moving. One of the four woman murdered (Tracy?) was clearly sent to the glass box room to seduce a really stupid young man. Couldn't you complain about the sexist portrayal of that young man, who doesn't respect the job he has been hired to do and will ignore all the rules at a moments notice just for the opportunity to sit next to a pretty woman? They are both murdered together, and both in a state of undress, after she initiates a sexual encounter (presumably to take advantage of him and get whatever she was hired to find). Another murdered woman is the wife of the man set up for murder, who is clearly a much more powerful and smarter character than her husband. Why is the fact that Bad Coop shoots her so much worse than the implication that Bad Coop set up her whiny husband for murder? Another murdered woman's head is found in bed with a naked man's headless body? Why doesn't he factor into your assessment of how men and women are represented? I saw someone else comment here about how we first see Jade topless. Actually we see her naked but turned to the side, and this is perfectly appropriate for a prostitute character. She is also depicted as totally in control of her situation, not a helpless victim; and kind, even to an idiot like Duggy. As they said on the podcast, she is one of the most real characters we see. Shouldn't that count for something? How does Cooper get out of the netherworld? Only through the actions/help of women. I'll stop there and hope this gives you enough things to consider. Is there sexism going on in Twin Peak: The Return? Yes. As there is in the rest of life. But I do not believe that it is uniquely horrid or nearly as one-dimensionally bad as you make it out to be.

Maybe, but I don't see it as being a, "very well," possibility. Preston was asked to wear a wire because she she's the junior person on the team, so you get extra duties. She was not "immediately" sent away; she was sent away after many hours together and only for a short time, while Cole and Albert talked about this being a Blue Rose case and other details that you don't want on the record and you might not want to share with a junior agent (remember that Sam Stanley (Kiefer Sutherland) is a rising star in the FBI in Fire Walk with Me but he's not let in on what the Blue Rose means). Does their gaze at Preston waking away say something about men in general? Yes. And some men in the workplace? Yes. Does the Denise conversation tell us that Cole likes attractive women under 30? Yes. But there is no evidence that Cole or Albert or other men on their team are misusing their authority or disrespecting any of the female staff in some institutionalized manner. I think it's more reasonable to argue that Lynch is acknowledging real life. Cole is "Old School" and he is who he is. He likes pretty, younger women. But he is not about to let that stop him from being a professional in the workplace, just like he stood up for Dennis when he transitioned to Denise but he doesn't want to hear about her, "raging hormones." He is walking a line between his gut reactions and his professionalism. He is imperfect but better than most when it comes to the bottomline.

I realize we are all just speculating at this point but there are a couple of things that surprised me in your theorizing: You listed off nearly all the female characters in Twin Peaks who might be the one Cole and Albert are talking about but never mentioned Annie (Heather Graham). I know Graham says she's not in The Return but that can't be trusted 100% and it still seems worth mentioning as the most logical choice to me. Why would the character have become a drunk? Because the man she loved, the man who saved her life, abandoned here 25 years ago? Given the fact that the original series ends with the question, "How's Annie?" it seems at least worth talking about. You keep talking Duggy as if you are sure he has been living as a separate entity for many years. This might be true but I didn't take it like that at all. I figured that Bad Coop has been living a relatively normal cover life as Duggy for many years and doing his evil business on the side. This also gives us some reasons as to why people are trying to kill his Duggy persona and why Dyggy's wife is afraid about the money they owe. I think Bad Coop only recently made a fake Duggy to escape being pulled back into the Black Lodge but he has been living much of the time as Duggy. I also think that the two bodies found in that S. Dakota bed are the remains of what Bad Coop used to make the fake Duggy. Does anyone else see it this way?