AlexB

I agree that our discussion is played-out. Any replies I gave now (about the distinction between historical and modern Nazi movements) would just be repeating myself. I do appreciate the way it went though, so thanks for that.

So they're a global movement of racist bastards who happen to like how swastikas look? I have no personal experience of neo-nazis, but some experience with people who were involved in racist political movements. I really don't know what motivates somebody to become a neo-nazi. It would seem particularly baffling considering the high social cost involved in tattooing "Heil Hitler" on your face... but then that itself is probably the appeal. I don't think that using the Nazi aesthetic in artwork makes society more relaxed about racism. Racists use the Nazi aesthetic because it is taboo, and because they want to provoke and scare people.

It is a silly analogy. I could defend it with my use of the word "similar", but my main point is that the historical Nazis and the modern neo-nazis are two distinct groups with different motivations etc. Their main point of continuity is the aesthetic appropriation and idolisation that has taken place. There were racist bastards before there were Nazis, and there are post-Nazi racist bastards who are nevertheless not neo-nazi. Vosslerlarry was, I think, talking about modern nazi fetishists (so aesthetic neo-nazis?) who I'm assuming were not white supremacist. Or maybe they were?

This is quite interesting. My original perspective on this as a Europe vs. US thing was that maybe it was different in the US because there was more distance there (and so historical Nazis more easily took a cartoonishly monstrous form). I guess it is possible though that the experience of what Nazism inspired - particularly in terms of openly-displayed gang aesthetics etc. - is much more present in the US than in (Western) Europe. I maintain my previous distinction though. The relationship between the historical Nazis who took over Germany during World War 2 and a modern neo-nazi in the US is going to be similar to the relationship between a medieval knight and a renaissance fair attendee.

My point in that case would be that it's hard to find somebody who can't say they are oppressed in some way. I must admit though I have not seen the "this game offends me" position for Luftrausers articulated beyond "it (maybe) makes Nazis less revolting/monstrous". I don't think humanising Nazis would actually be a dangerous move. My position (which is obviously the best and most important one) on them is that they were (I don't think modern "Nazis" are the same as WW2 Nazis) ordinary humans who chose to do terrible things. That road is open to any of us and only by recognising that fact can we be vigilant about it. Its possible that I don't have any of those nicer schemes unlocked yet (I think I've got to the point where I have all of the parts for the plane, and now my interest has tailed off a bit)... or it may be that I am just much more used to the default.

Assuming that's a list joined by "AND" rather than "OR" (and I'm a bit puzzled by the word "old" in there) then I look forward to your bright future of "punch Donald Trump in the face" games. =P The general problem I have (so this is not a slam on you or anything) with that sort of singular and ideologically-motivated critical lens is that you are limiting the scope of what you can address. If you interpret everything in terms of power-oppression axes between different subgroups then you can never break out of that to ask questions about "the human condition". Neither can you get down to level of individual personalities.

Yeah, I cringed a lot during that discussion... If Luftrausers actually had you playing as Hitler flying an experimental plane constructed from the bones of Jewish children then that would obviously push things into the realm of "bad taste", but I don't think that's what is bothering people here. There was a profound evil at the heart of Germany during the second world war. To some people (Americans in particular, maybe because of the distance) that forces them to believe that everybody involved was a monster. Life is never that simple though. There were Germans who did ingenious, brave, and heroic things. There were Germans who went out of their way to save innocent lives. Conversely, there were allied soldiers who committed war crimes. If the game were to have an authentic historical setting in WW2 Germany then the protagonist would probably be a member of the SS (and so a Nazi party member) because I doubt he'd be trusted with an experimental super-plane otherwise. Even then, there are many possible motivations you might give for somebody joining the party, such as: being indoctrinated from childhood, wanting to protect your family, wanting to reclaim your family's homeland, etc. There is another potential game* out there (if someone had the guts to make it) that could address these issues and ask the question: "What would you do if you (and your friends and family) were on the wrong side, and would you even be able to tell?". I imagine the average playthrough would be pretty short though, as refusing to fight typically got you shot. Even surrendering to the "good guys" could get you killed. For what it's worth, the game didn't get me thinking "hells yeah, Nazis!" though I do think they missed their stated aesthetic target. The main feeling I got was that of being the plucky underdog trying to stop an overwhelming enemy force. Same as FTL. Also is it just me or are all of the colour themes except for the default one unplayable? Particularly the ones that make the background have a higher contrast than the enemy planes. * Yeah I know Deus Ex kind of did this already but I'm talking about something that makes the game about those choices, rather than just a narrative conceit. I do think there was some of that stuff in the "Dark Side" story of the Old Republic MMORPG but I never played it.