Dijonjon

Nice, I think I might be able to actually participate in this one! I'm going away on the 14th, but I'm sure I can get something done before then. At the very least I'll be able to make some dumb garbage

Last year I bought my friend a captain zoom DVD as a birthday present. Her name... LAURA. If I could only turn back time that 16.95 USD (plus shipping and handling) could have been used for a Captain Zoom DVD for someone named Jason, or maybe even a Bently.

I'm really glad that Ani finally got to investigate something without it being directly tied to her family, that was really starting to grate on my nerves. I've been enjoying the season so far, this episode especially, but I don't feel like any of the main characters have very well defined voices. Actually, this probably isn't true for Woodrough, but his voice is mainly just a series of stern looks.

Wow, that's a really really interesting point that definitely deserves more consideration than I'm able to give it right now. I think part of it has to do with the fact that Star Wars was such a well established property by the time Tie Fighter came out that people probably didn't give the same amount of thought to it. Also, Tie Fighter is 20 years old. Games criticism, not to mention the internet, as we know it today didn't exist. I think if Luftrausers came out 20 to 30 years ago the discussion around it might be very different. I think it's just a sign that the medium is in its adolescence, and more and more people are starting to take it seriously. (I only played WoW for a couple months so I can't comment on that).

Ah ok, I'm relieved! (Sorry, I'm new to the forums and really didn't want to disrespect or upset anyone). Yeah it is an important, interesting, and more or less subjective boundary to try and dissect. I run the risk of repeating myself, but just thinking it through plays a huge part in my eyes. if you're going to cast someone in a controversial role or setting, you had better have something that needs saying or provide the audience or participant with something very compelling to think about afterwards. This is why I don't think the potential criticisms of games like Train, or Papers, Please in the same ballpark as Luftrausers. I think the issue is due to the fact that it's participatory, and forces the player into that role as opposed to the role of the spectator. I haven't played all the games listed on TV Tropes but I don't know of any other games that put the player there. Gormongous alluded to table top games, and I hadn't considered those. It's a really good point, but the only table top games I know of are so large and abstract (i.e. Axis & Allies) that I'm not sure they have the same sort of impact. I could be wrong though, it's just as likely that some people are offended by a game like Axis & Allies.

I'm getting the impression that I upset you, and I'm sorry about that. That really wasn't the reaction I was going for (the irony of this in the context of this conversation is not lost on me...) Anyway, I wasn't trying to imply that it was a bad/shitty/stupid question to ask. I was just trying to provide my viewpoint on it. Obviously, this was not done in an effective way. Sorry again. Yeah that's true. Though, I think it's important to note that I don't think there's a World War II dogfighting game that puts you in the position of the Axis, let alone the Nazis (I have not fact checked this, so if I'm wrong please let me know. That would be an interesting point of comparison). Making Luftrausers explicitly take place during World War II would probably result in the player assuming the role Nazi, which would be even more problematic. Unless you meant it was just a World War II dogfighting game where you also play the Allies.

No argument here! I think I see where you're coming from, but I have a negative reaction to questions like these (though that may be a fault of my own). From what I understand, the point of these questions is to understand whether or not some subject matter should be off limits for art. I haven't thought about this a great deal, but I'd like to think that there's a great deal of good that can be done by tackling certain topics through a variety of mediums, if done responsibly of course. I hadn't considered these other examples, but I think this is a really solid observation. While I don't think the question of "whether or not these games should have been made" is particularly interesting, I do think the realization that certain contexts can affect certain players in ways that you (the creator) might not understand is of extreme importance. Like I said, there's a minimum amount of awareness that I feel should be required if you're going to attempt to make a game (or film, or whatever) about certain people, places, or time periods. Although, this is also somewhat naive. If someone thinks an aesthetic or time period divorced of context looks cool, and doesn't understand the possible readings, well... that's just a being misinformed, and there's nothing anyone can really do about that except for pointing it out after the fact. Well, rather than this criticism being seen as negative, I like to view it as a positive. If not for any particular game than, for the medium as a whole. If you're making something that might be worth a damn, I feel like being put under scrutiny is sort of what you want. I don't think a game like Train was made with the hopes of getting away with it, but rather to create interesting discussions around the piece. There is an amount of intentionality and thoughtfulness that just doesn't exist in something like Luftrausers, and that's what I find troubling (personally). I don't know if I'd go as far to say that they intended to make a game about Nazis. The response feels a bit wishy washy, but I don't think they're lying when they say they didn't intend for people to read it that way. Again, I sort of see this as an indication that they didn't put as much thought into it as they probably should have.

Chevy Ray Johnston, Alec Holowka, and Daniel Nascimento started Unity Patterns toward the end of last year. There's not a lot of content on there, but what is there is well written and comprehensive. They also post free editor extensions to use. There was a bit of a lull, but hopefully they'll continue to update it. Anyway, what's there right now is pretty good especially if you're bridging the beginner to intermediate gap.

I appreciate the sentiment of giving other people the benefit of the doubt. But I feel like it's a bit reductive to put the entirety of the responsibility on the audience. To echo other responses in this thread, the issue seems to be one of carelessness and empathy. I agree that we shouldn't hold creators accountable for how people read their work. Yet, I do think that if you create something that might be challenging or troubling, you should have a good reason for doing so. While I don't believe that Vlambeer tried to trick people into becoming Nazi sympathizers, I do think they are at fault (to a point). The way I see it either they didn't realize there was a parallel to draw between the Luftrausers and Nazism or they did but thought it was OK. About the latter point, I don't think they said, "Oh, people might think these folks are Nazis… fuck 'em". Although, it might have been more like, "Oh, people might think these folks are Nazis… but probably not." I don't think it matters which train of thought (or lack thereof) is to blame, I find both of them problematic. Now, I could be wrong. Vlambeer might have a compelling reason for some of the aesthetic choices aside from it looking hecka rad. Though if that's the case, I don't think the game communicates it well. Again I don't think there's any use in condemning Vlambeer, but I do think it's for the best to call them out on it. My only fear is that they may be more cautious about tackling challenging topics/contexts. I think the takeaway for them should be whether they have sound reasons for their choices, aesthetic or otherwise.

Just to add to Dinosaursssssss' post, I would recommend these two talks. Jiro Dreams of Game Design by Brenda RomeroIt's not a technical talk, but I think it's a really great examination of game design (and/or general game development) and craftsmanship. http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020496/Jiro-Dreams-of-Game A Study in Transparency: How Boardgames Matter by Soren JohnsonNot exactly novel, but I thought it was a good talk about the value that transparent systems (most commonly seen in board games) offer http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1020408/A-Study-in-Transparency-How

Hi everyone, i've been listening to Idle Thumbs for a little while now, and after reading the replies to last week's episode decided that this seems like a really rad community to be a part of!