AndyB

Dog's Life: serene, warm & funny, hypnotic, I LOOVE bones!, smellovision, barking, pooping, easy puzzles, farting, chickens, butchers, snowmen. http://ps2.gamezone.com/gzreviews/r22925.htm and for balance a less good review, although I mainly agree with the top one. http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=53722

I'm not saying that games *are* irrelevant or that they cannot say anything. But it seems to me that so many games are irrelevant except in terms of being short-lived fun to pass the time with, no matter how good the game. Because, they do not speak of anything particularly relevant to our society. You don't feel as though you have come away with a new insight into society / human nature / life / ourselves after playing a platform game or Doom 3. Games can certainly act as a form of speech, but not many say much of interest*. Even Metal Gear Solid 1/2 which push some interesting philosophical points doesn't make very relevant ones, you aren't determined by your genes? information is power? / can be controlled. You don't feel that you have come out with a new understanding of life in the slums, or the nature of extreme capitalism, the working of a romantic heart (like Ally McBeal) or what-have-you.

Highlights from a review by Tim Rogers: http://www.insertcredit.com/reviews/katamari/index2.html The collapse of an entire continent into one giant ball, which then proceeds to fester in the middle of the ocean while everyone sits silently on a sofa, depressed .... I say this with the highest sense of admiration and honor. Yet there is a darker feeling, one I can't get out as well as I'd like. I started this review in the mood to get that point out, and I just haven't been able to do it yet. I thought that bullshitting for a couple thousand words would warm me up. It has not, however, made the grave matter any easier to disclose. I'll force it out, then: .... I don't believe this game is art, however. It's far from that. It's a tool for teaching people something, in addition to being a Video game and a hell of an interesting programming experiment. It is also very entertaining to someone who doesn't know what it is. .... When you do know it, however, it pushes you away, and tells you to play something else. When you play that final stage in free mode, once you're awarded free mode, and you collect all there is to collect, you roll around, free of a time-limit, looking, praying for more icebergs. None will come. Nothing a man makes can be infinite. This game, with its carefully designed world, cannot and will not go on forever. Sitting in the middle of the ocean, staring at that huge lump you've made, you'll wonder what the point is of it all. Just -- what the point is of anything. Not just Katamari Damashii, by Namco, for PlayStation2 -- gaming in general. Not just gaming in general, either -- what's the point of anything? Living? Working? Drinking Coca-Cola? Though you have the option to exit out of the stage through the menu, chances are you'll do what I did, and just turn the game console off now. ---------------------------:----------------- AB: Isn't this kind of what Ron Gilbert was saying?

Yufster, when I said [You don't feel as though you have come away with a new insight into society / human nature / life / ourselves after playing a platform game or Doom 3.] I don't mean so much profound 'enlightenment' which is what it sounds like I was saying, as the gameplay is very unrealistic and abstract and doesn't much relate to life -or people- in general. Quick unrelated side-note: On a BG&E trip, "The title alludes to Friedrich Nietzsche's book of the same name, in which he states that "anything done out of love goes beyond good and evil"." Now that makes sense!

So what IS the obsession with crying? Or more particularly what effect do you want to achieve in these games. It seems to me that this issue isn't so much about crying as achieving positive emotional attachment with a place, a character (or even a thing). (and then taking it away, or altering it). What you want is games that get you to care about an in-game object /A.I so that you are upset if it gets hurt, or leaves you. At least, that is my interpretation of what you guys are saying. How about a game which makes you leave the game world as you win, so that you leave behind the beatiful land full of enchanting characters to return to your character's "home". The question is how do you make people care via gameplay rather than prescripted story?

What I'm suggesting is what the qotm says, "Storytelling is mostly about people. Games are mostly about things, so far. It is easier to create mathematical simulations about things than people. " Or in other words these games are based around things and simple objectives - shoot them all, catch, race, jump! Rather than about people and their feelings, quirks individualities ETC.

Well, you have a choice of how you want to spend your entertainment time, do you want to watch ER, The Simpsons or play a video-game? Anyway, don't get too het up over this thread it is only theoretical, I'm not saying that games -suck- because they aren't as thought-provoking as other medium, games are like toys come to life, Army Men toys that play back with you and try to run your Micro-Machines car over while shooting at it (GTA). Castle Greyskulls, with living henchmen in. Dolls that pretend they have feelings. etc. ETC. Maybe it is enough that some of them try to reawaken our inner child? (pretention-on-a-stick).

1. I know that, but I believe that games don't have to be laden with Planescape Torment / Metal Gear Solid / or Final Fantasy dialogue (or worse cut-scenes). 2. Probably all about touching! 3. Funny that you got the impression that I'm fairly young still, I'm actually closer to thirty than twenty, and getting disillusioned with games !. Having owned most things from a Spectrum +, through SNES, N64, PS2, several PCs. It seems that Idle Thumb-ers are interested in the kinds of games that try to be distinctive and offer something fresh. The kind that are looking forward to Okami, who've picked up Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy, SOS: The Final Escape, and Beyond Good and Evil.

Exactly games don't have to be full of dialogue to show meanings! What I'm saying is, do you feel that you gain anything from single-player games? Sure they are fun, but they are very insular and solitary in their nature. Unlike say a cop show, or E.R which make you think about interesting issues like inequality, fairness, consideration etc. as well as entertaining you. They make you think about things other than which enemy to shoot first, which platform to jump on, whether to invade Morocco or Abyssinia. The word that comes to mind is pointless, and inane. These games are often just toys, (for adults) which is no bad thing, but we should be able to do more. --- Can anyone specify what they mean by gramm(a/e)r of cinema? give some examples of what you mean, so that it makes it clearer what you mean and what the equivalent would be in games.

I was thinking the other day that games would be really interesting if they had characters that you could get to know over a period of time, and they would start letting you know bits of their life stories and their opinions. But only if you hang around with them and treat them well. You would feel as though you were getting to know that character and bond with them.

Where are the games for people who are new to gaming (not me) that have simple controls and a gentle learning curve but which are still inspiring?

The style looks awesome especially the 'wooden humans', but is there any kind of challenge to the gameplay it seems very simple from the videos I've seen. What makes it interesting, and what makes it fun?

I share your doubts, but --- as long as the platforming is good and the levels as excellently designed!

What are your favourite web-games?

Simple answer shoehorn Mario / Princess Peach into each of these games, anyone with elite photoshop skills could try their hand at Psycho-Mario-Nauts, or Super Mar-ICO brothers feat. Princess Peach as Yorda, or having Mario / Luigi (he wears green?) pushing the Katamari. Basically, what I am saying is that if these more off-beat games had a popular character at their centre it might be easier to sell them? heh (Of course, I would say that it isn't just the character of Mario that interests these gamers, but the simplicity / accessibility of the 2D run'n'jump'n'stomp gameplay.