Salka

Well that's pretty much a lot of evidence that it's not an inherent trait. That fills me with a lot of happy. Thanks!

can you link me to some info on these TP?

Twig all I ever seem to read from you is whining about how people haven't read your posts properly. The problem here isn't everyone else. The problem is you; you're shit at communicating. Try harder, or stop trying to contribute to discussions that require you to communicate clearly. Seriously, for someone who generally believes people should just man up and not give a shit about anything, you're doing an awful lot of whining and victimizing of yourself.

Also worrying was that the attitudes from 4000 years ago are still not uncommon today. Not just in extreme counties like Sudan either. Look at the vile misogyny of PUA forums... the steadfast belief that women are inferior, men should be allowed to cheat but their wives should be controlled in every aspect of their sexuality, that their value is only worth as much as their virginity and their obedience, and that disobedience should be punished with violence. Even in ancient Rome, men were whining that giving women even a small amount of independence would threaten their rights as men wah wah wah. Even before feminism was a conceivable idea, men across the world were afraid of women having any power, scared of the threat of losing their privilege. And these attitudes are still widespread today. I can point you to a forum where I recently saw a conversation about some guy who wanted to poison a girl who he believed had cheated on his friend, and where the men discuss how women shouldn't have jobs, should stay at home, are incapable of staying faithful (while they believe it's their right to cheat as much as they like) and while, although their primary goal is to have sex with as many women as possible, they refer to women as sluts and whores even in casual conversation. It makes me wonder how much of these attitudes is actually inherent within most of us? How much of it do we educate away? How far removed are we, really, from what we consider to be animals?

I'm reading a fascinating book at the moment which I recommend to everyone... it's called Sex and Punishment, and is about how humans have attempted to control peoples sex lives in the past 4000 years. Obviously there is a lot about women and homosexuality. One thing that made me sad was to realise that the root of homophobia, historically speaking, lies in misogyny - even before the advent of Christianity when homosexual encounters were common, it was considered disgusting to be in the position of the woman. It 'feminized' men and so only young boys/men of lower social status were able to be the receptive partners. The dominant partner was still just as masculine. Male-male sex was frowned upon because the man was lowering himself to the status of a woman. It makes sense seeing as how to this day, misogynists and sexists are nearly always homophobic too. I always wondered why exactly it was that some men are so violently repulsed by the mere idea of another man fancying them or thinking of them in that way at all... could it be because it places them in the uncomfortable position of a woman? They are also always the sort of men who inflict horrible pushiness/unwanted attention on women and excuse it with statements like 'they should be grateful for the attention".

It's so weird that people take this bizarre, innate offense at women in positions of power or influence. Like that fuckwit who sent a load of abuse to Felicia Day on Twitter; he had no idea who she was, he just assumed that because she was a woman, she was useless/attention seeking/contributing nothing. And thought this assumption made it appropriate for him to send her a load of abuse which he later "justified" by saying he thought he was sending it to her privately, not publicly. Because you should always keep your abuse away from the judging eyes of the public, right. It seems like there is some desperate, insecure subset of men who are scared of losing their power and privilege, scared of women being in their little privileged circle and showing them up. I don't think they think this is the case, or even think that they are sexist or misogynistic; they just have unexplained angry knee-jerk reactions like that Felicia Day abuser, which they probably justify in other ways. Or sending women threats on the internet, or pictures of their dicks to reduce these women to objects of sexual desire or otherwise attempting to reduce their value. However, ultimately all it's doing is making them collectively look like a bunch of insecure idiots and highlighting that they are the bottom rung of society, not the women they abuse. When I see stuff like that, it doesn't make me feel like the inferior sex - it makes me feel far superior to these people who think their own dick is so great that they want to show everyone, or who are so narrow minded that they send abuse to a woman who has done more for the games industry than they ever will. I went to the zoo yesterday and the chimps had a similar fascination with their own dicks.

Two things made me sad today. Firstly this: http://www.leftfootf...at-a-euro-exit/ Totally unnecessary use of that photo in what is either an attempt to undermine her politically by sexualising her, or potentially it is just to cater to their audience who they believe to be mostly AHDH below-average-intelligence dudes... This was discussed in my facebook feed earlier with people discussing her attractiveness, in between some posts were people were discussing whether they 'would or wouldn't' Louise Mensch (who is a female conservative politician for those of you not from the UK). One of the comments on the link was that Teresa May should 'take a leaf from her book' in terms of how to make herself up (Teresa May is another female politician in the UK). Second thing was being in a shop and seeing the magazine section... 95% of the magazines had highly dolled-up women with their cleavage hanging out on the cover. Just meat being used to try and sell whatever fucking dreadful stuff filled the rest of the pages. TV guides, womens magazines, mens magazines, various other topics that I couldn't decipher (because they were in German). A really bleak little glimpse at the way society views women. And when that's the way we're presented, it then didn't seem so surprising that a guy on the train spent the entire journey staring at my chest. I mean why shouldn't he - that's what we're all here for after all, to be ogled and admired. I've just found a third thing that's made me sad: http://www.reddit.co...9t7t8?context=2 Most people in the world, it seems, are dickheads. I think if I was god for a day, I'd exterminate all the men who would send abuse/pictures of their dicks to women on the internet, and all women who would read Heat/Cosmo/shit like that. Then I'd see where that left us, and fine tune it from there. I think that would leave us with only fairly well-meaning and intelligent sorts. Also judging from my recent experience of trying to wheel someone around a city in a wheelchair, I'd exterminate everyone else too.

I'm going to see Julia Holter playing tonight if any Berliners are about?

Yeah you should never read The Daily Mail. Ever. They distort facts, lie, get hysterical. They hate women too, so will regularly have articles like "women are more promiscuous than men" or another one I saw recently that was something like "NEW STUDY shows that ATTRACTIVE women stay at home and have babies, only UGLY women focus on careers!" They also reckon everything both causes and cures cancer. A classic example of the way The Daily Mail distorts facts is an article I read about a boy with gender identity disorder. His parents allowed him to dress as a girl and behave as a girl because he had been so upset at his gender that he had tried, several times, to cut off his own penis. The Daily Mail distorted this in a way that made it appear that the parents had pushed him into becoming a girl, that he'd had a surgical operation to change his gender, and then denied the existence not only of Gender Identity Disorder, but also, bizarrely, of ADHD. They berated the parents for allowing the child to become a target of bullying when the only bullying coming his way was from a fucking huge international newspaper who had written a vile hate-filled essay about him, his family, and his disorder. So basically I'm not even going to bother reading that article because whether it's for or against anything anyone has argued, it's total bullshit either way.

Ben X, that list is awesome and I do appreciate it BUT I have already done most of the things on it! Like I said, I've been here a few times before... because unlike Elmeurte, it's about my favourite place in the world. I don't understand how anyone can find it boring or disappointing, it's one of the most vibrant, lively, interesting and amazing places I've ever been. I keep coming back because I never feel like I've even scratched the surface of things to discover here. Today I found a Gay Labyrinth and a some sort of gynecological maze (????). I have no idea how anybody could find it boring or disappointing, particularly given as it doesn't seem to have a real 'centre' like other European cities, so it would be almost impossible not to stumble on SOMEthing amazing no matter where you are... I'm close to Tempelhof, Castorp! I'm staying in Schoeneberg. Also the Kayak idea sounds amazing, I will definitely check that out. Also the more links to pubs/clubs/live music, the better. Thanks for the advice everyone!!! Dibs, if you like soul/jazz, I found a place called SoulCat Lounge in Kreuzburg. It's small and awesome and I saw a live ragtime jazz band who used old crates instead of music stands, so that was pretty awesome. I then went to a place called The Rauchhaus (sp?) which was only nearby, where there was more live music and win. So, I can recommend those places If you have a group of people with you there's also a games room somewhere in Friedrichschain (sp again) which I will try to dig out the details of. They have walls and walls of board games and you can sit and play, while helping yourself to delicious dunkel beer and eating toasties I had a lot of fun there. Also EDIT: here is the link: http://www.spielwies...lin.de/blog/en/ . I had tickets to see Radiohead on Friday but... disaster struck. :'(

I know a lady who is exactly this. She is sexually attracted to both sexes, but only deeply falls in love with/wants to have long-term relationships with men. She's been this way her whole life and is in her 30s now, and seems to know her own mind pretty well. Sexuality is fascinating.

Just throwing in my two crappy cents before running to the airport: there are also known cases of people who 'turn gay' in their older years. Isn't there some theory that there are three stages of sexuality in someones life or something? Anyway yeah, I read a couple of cases of women who had families and husbands and never had a homosexual urge in their life... until they turned 40-ish and then they became completely gay. I think the point of the article was that sexuality is an area which needs more research and discovery because these women knew their own sexualities but most people brushed off their stories as 'oh you must always have been gay but just not realised it.' Because our current thinking is, you're either born gay or straight or a mixture of both.

Yes but you're forgetting that the guys invented the idea of sticking their dicks in boys mouths in the first place. And obviously take pleasure in doing so. Same as in olden days Rome, it's not like they weren't getting anything out of having sex with boys. I'm just trying to point out that a lot of the common idea of sexuality these days is not in fact as black and white as it seems and that a lot of it IS actually culturally influenced, even in the things we reckon we have deep-seated preference for. And I think the phrase 'actually gay' is dodgy as all hell ¬¬ I'm pretty certain there are also vegan tribes of people around the world.

What is "actually gay"? Seriously.

I thought sexuality was one of the most culturally influenced things in that way, no? Like, you know in Ancient Rome they were mixing it up mad style. I guess it depends on your definition of hetero, the modern idea of sexuality is very black and white and our culture definitely pushes it to be that way.

Funny you should precede that statement with 'as a guy'... of my friends, who are mostly guys, I can't think of one who enjoys no-strings-attached sex. All who have tried either become emotionally involved quickly, or have had 'awkward, failed one night stands' that they never want to repeat. A handful of my male friends have even been at the mercy of a woman who has insisted on a 'friends-with-benefits' scenario while they desperately want more. I know one person who likes one-night-stands and that's a woman. EDIT: actually I did just think of one other one who is, admittedly, a guy. But a guy who goes on holidays on his own to places like The Czech Republic, in order to treat himself to some 'high-grade' prostitutes. So I don't know if he counts. I don't think the lust for loads of no-strings-attached sex with different people is actually something that most people really want, male or female. Certainly not for most people I know. I don't think it takes people long to realise that sex is best with people you have a good connection with and understanding of. EDIT: my first edit made me think... I actually know about 5 guys who've been to see prostitutes. They're not the sort of people you expect them to be, either. It's weird, I always assumed growing up that prostitution was some weird thing that was growing out of our society, but now I... yeah. Loads of people do that shit.

You guys heard of Menomena, or Shearwater? Those guys are awesome. I saw Shearwater live recently and they blew my mind, if you ever get the chance to go you totally should:

Man, something you guys should check out: The Killing (danish one) and The Bridge. Both Danish thriller shows, and both with awesome female protagonists. Not only are they intelligent, strong, likeable and complex characters, but they've also cast women who are not the typical sort of television-show generic mid-20s blank-canvass-face... they've cast normal-looking women who are attractive because of their on-screen personalities. It's something you see in male characters on television a lot, but not often women, and it is hugely pleasing to me. Their gender is never an issue and is never questioned, there is never a male/female divide or sexism or sleaze or gratuitous female nudity (I think there's more male nudity in both shows than female). They are just awesome female protagonists living in a world where their gender is not challenged or questioned. Lund and Saga are heroes. Also worth watching because it highlights how underrepresented this sort of woman is in media. Christ I love her so much. I want that jumper so bad.

I think the thing about Feminism is that, even in the name, it implies it's a thing for women, and so a lot of people assume it's about women fighting against men, but as evidenced by everyone in this thread (at the very least everyone believes in equality between the genders even if we don't all agree on how to go about making it happen), it's actually a case of People Who Believe In Equality vs. Dickheads. I don't actually feel like I'm in a different category or fighting a different fight from everyone else in this thread. I wish that was something that more people realised

*People.

[media=] [/media]Ggggnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

I don't think most people see it as a problem, most people just pick and choose from the bible. I went to a Catholic school and the girls there picked some things that were 'definitely true' and some things that seemed a bit much and so 'probably' weren't true depending on how much it all fit with their view of their world. But it didn't seem to be a particularly large problem to any of them, they were pretty chilled out about religion overall and just called total bullshit when they saw it, but were happy with a lot of the other, milder stuff in the aul' holy book.

Thanks for the link Nach. Interesting bit about white privilege too, I rarely have to think about that but it's totally comparable to the male privilege thing. Having to go that extra mile to prove yourself just because you're a woman, or people making assumptions about your abilities because you are... I've been in work at the guitar shop for about two hours now and already I've had one person incredulously ask if I can 'actually play' guitar But yeah, crazy to think of that being a thing that also happens just due to skin colour. I remember reading about a test recently where people - average, non-racist people - were asked to press a button corresponding to 'good' or 'bad' when they were shown the photographs of the faces of black or white people. When asked to press 'good' for white and 'bad' for black, peoples reaction speeds were fast. However, when people were asked to press 'good' for black and 'bad' for white, they hesitated and their reaction speeds were noticeably slower. At an unconscious level, people were showing more difficulty attributing 'good' to black faces and 'bad' to white faces. I think this link has more on that study: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/background/faqs.html Here's another awesome one regarding feminism that I recommend reading: http://mattgemmell.com/2012/04/20/misogyny/ Twig, you should give it a look as well. It's written by a guy so it highlights a lot of things that ordinarily might not come to mind because, as guys, you just don't get confronted with this stuff in the way that women do. It probably explains things far better than I ever could, and by a guy who is also a Feminist.

Do you find the people who generally have thought it out tend to sway towards a more vague concept of religion? That has always been my experience of this; people, for instance, who have have a belief based on the Catholicism in which they were raised, but also make up their own mind about certain issues, and will embrace science/biology/etc without blocking out areas that conflict with their religious beliefs. I don't look down on this mentality at all. The thing that bothers me, and when I start to think condescendingly, is when people unquestioningly believe stories from the Bible, like Noah's Ark. Or, for instance, I knew a girl in school who was a great, kind girl, but she believed adamantly that gay people and non-believers would go to hell and burn for eternity, and that God spoke back to her when she prayed. We got on well anyway, but I can't help but find that sort of non-curious, non-questioning mentality to be a bad thing in any area of life, not just religion. Same with a guy I worked with who was deeply religious, he never pushed it on anyone else for the most part, but then he was very much about gay people and non-believers burning for eternity, and I do admittedly look down on people who believe this sort of thing based on the flimsiest and most questionable of reasons. I try to always keep an open mind about stuff and sometimes I have my eyes opened to things by people, or question things I previously thought I knew for certain. There is something both intensely annoying but simultaneously incredibly satisfying about someone winning you over in an argument and making you see things from a different point of view for the first time, but of the deeply religious people I know who take God and the Bible (for instance) as a very serious, inarguable fact, this never seems to happen for them. If it happened then they've already moved on to become the sort of religious person I don't look down on the mentality of, that I mentioned in the first paragraph. I never wrote those people off due to their beliefs and we actually got on pretty well, I guess I'm trying to say that it's that mentality that I look down on, the idea that people can think 'Noah's Ark actually happened because it says so in the Bible and also you're going to hell forever because my Church says so' without questioning it. It's an odd, incurious mindset and I think people should be encouraged to constantly question and update their beliefs, no matter whether it's about science or religion or even music and art.

Losef, most female writers don't spend "most of their time" talking about what it is to be female, either. That is an odd misconception you seem to have there. Maybe you think that because the female writers you've taken notice of are the ones who are writing about feminism, because it annoys you? I'm not sure. If you want I can link you to an infinite supply of men writing about what it's like to be men, though. Or you can google for "The Manosphere" yourself and see for yourself. There are people on both sides who are interested in gender in both positive and negative ways, it's not just women. As for the rest of your post, Wikipedia Brown pretty much pointed out that you answered it yourself. You don't find it interesting but that doesn't mean it's not important or relevant. A lot of people don't find politics interesting. Similarly a lot of people write about politics as it's a point of interest for them. Different journalists/writers can specialise in different things; sometimes it's sport, sometimes it's war coverage, sometimes it's feminism, sometimes it's politics. Sometimes people are unnecessarily nettled by the mention of feminism and just want people to shut up about it. You don't feel you have to identify yourself as A MAN in society because the whole of our patriarchal society is structured around men and being a man anyway. I can't remember where I saw this recently (probably reddit) but a guy posted to say he had once overheard a straight guy and a gay guy arguing. The straight guy asked why gay people have their own clubs and pubs and stuff, and push their own identity so hard, and that he sees that as them segregated themselves from everyone else. The gay guy's response was that everything else in the world is marketed towards straight white males, and it's nice to have something that caters for them, or something a little more poetic than this. I have worded it way less awesomely. I mean look at this bullshit: http://www.enewman.c...ot-a-girl-thing This is totally fucking normal in our society. Do you understand how patronising that is?? You go into a toy shop and there's a pink aisle full of dolls for girls, and a blue aisle full of science stuff and lego for boys. This is why feminism is an important topic, because without people who pushed out new ideas and forced people to think and debate about this sort of thing, it would go unchecked. You don't like it, you don't have to read it, but I don't understand why people get genuinely annoyed when they have to skip over an article about feminism. Fucking typical women, having a moan about being patronised, oppressed and belittled in society, eh? Meanwhile there are a gazillion articles about everything else that you probably don't read either, but don't feel the need to be annoyed about just because they exist outside your area of interest. I'm sorry if this sounds abrupt and annoyed, I'm not annoyed, I'm just being very lazy about constructing my posts. EDIT: Everyone just replied a lot more eloquently than me anyway.