ThunderPeel2001

Yeah, I fixed my post while you were writing yours, doh. Never mind. This whole discussion is making ME feel depressed I think I've made my points as well as I can... Shall we just call it a day?

Yeah, I do mention that further down... Quote: "likewise, it's probably not good to totally avoid the little bits of pain our subconscious is feeding us, either." Maybe your case might be a bit different because you hadn't even begun bereaving...? I don't know. Only you could say. Once you'd started, I don't believe it would be good for you to focus on it until it had all gone. It's a long natural process, taking it bit by bit. My ex used to avoid dealing with anything, and I never felt that was doing her any good. I personally believe you DO need to deal with things, but my point was that if you ARE in a state of heavy bereavement, you don't need to go chasing down MORE of it. (I guess I made my point poorly, sorry.)

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across too harshly, it's just that this can be quite a serious subject. I singled out you inparticular only because of your status as a (near) medical professional. As far as I'm aware there haven't been any studies showing that self-created self-help is an effective form of treatment at all, and plenty to show that not getting professional help can be destructive, so seeing you write something as casual as "I think that self therapy can be as successful if not more successful than formal therapy" is a little shocking (even though you did try and qualify it by saying "not for everyone"). I guess you might have to get used to the fact that the things you say on a medical level will be taken more seriously! This is a fact that's found in many places. I personally discovered it on a UK government document on depression. I'm not sure what sources you'll take as "legitimate", so maybe you should look around yourself? Edit: I've found a few sources for you, if you'll accept them. NIMH, In Harm’s way: Suicide in American, 2003: "90% of people who kill themselves have depression or another diagnosable mental or substance abuse disorder". DR. JOSEPH SISON, 2004: "the majority of kids and adults who kill themselves have untreated depression." Marris, 1991: It is estimated that 66% of suicides had a depressive illness. Lehtinen et al, 1990: Most people do not receive adequate treatment for depression which is one of the reasons why the depression/suicide link is so strong. Barraclough, 1974: Out of 100 suicide cases studied, 93 were diagnosed as mentally ill, with 70% having depression as the primary diagnosis. I couldn't find the precise quote I mentioned (it's obviously an estimate, as all such figures are). You're much more likely to find that precise stat than me, as I don't have access to all the medical journals you do! Absolutely, I never meant to dispute this. My only concern was with Scrobb's argument that "tackling something head on" is NEVER a bad thing, and that "self help" can be a bad thing (which I know you agree with). Sorry for taking this all "very seriously", but I lost a friend to suicide (and he got some of the advice I've previously mentioned), so I'm very careful about what I say about mental health issues, and what is given as advice in conversations I'm involved in. I think it's very easy to be forget that some people are really suffering, and I wouldn't want someone to stumble across this and get the wrong message.

This type of miscommunication is precisely why giving advice over the internet is a bad thing. Tackling things "head on" can be very helpful in certain situations, but very harmful in others, and especially depending on how such advice is interpreted. Here's an example of how tackling something "head on" could be misinterpreted by someone suffering from depression: Instead of taking it to mean "get professional help", they take it to mean they should rationally attack their irrational thoughts. So they focus on their own negatively distorted view of reality. This is NOT a good thing. It will not make them better quicker, nor improve your resilience to the depression (quite the contrary). Things will be made worse by obsessing on all the reasons why life is pointless, worthless and horrible. Even by attempting to fight these irrationally negative thoughts you're obsessing and interacting with them. An irrational (i.e. ill) brain cannot be reasoned with like that, so all you're doing is focussing more on this distorted perspective and making it more real. Best medical advice, if you're suffering with depression, is NOT to focus on those thoughts, but rather to distract yourself from them. Go out, take up a hobby, socialise more, but don't sit around trying to "fix" your problems. If things get worse, then you need medical help. Period. This might seem obvious, but I've witnessed people actually give similar advice for people suffering from depression, literally saying "explore your depression further, go deeper into it". This is WRONG. It might be worth pointing out, before anyone decides they know better, that 80% of all suicides are caused by untreated depression. And that suicide is the second biggest killer for males aged 10 to 25 (so like, just about everyone reading this). And that studies continue to show that a combination of psychotherapy and antidepressant medication is the most effective way of treating most people who suffer from depression. Nobody should be told they should be tackling their negative thoughts "head on", because it simply will not work. Similarly, in my own situation, someone could interpret tackling something "head on" to mean coming up with reasons not to feel lonely... when the best thing I could be doing is actually going out and meeting new people. Another example: If you're suffering from bereavement (either after having been dumped, or having lost a loved one, etc.) then focussing on that pain will actually slow down the process of healing. What happens during a normal, healthy process of bereavement, is that the subconscious will feed our conscious just as much of the pain as we're able to deal with, bit by bit, rather than hitting us with the whole thing in one go, in way we couldn't handle. Over time we will naturally come to terms with the reality of the situation, at a pace which works for us. Forcing that process is NOT a good thing. (But likewise, it's probably not good to totally avoid the little bits of pain our subconscious is feeding us, either.) I don't mean to beat a dead horse, or to be having a massive go at you, Ian, but someone reading wooly advice like "tackling things head on will allow you to deal with more bad things" could totally misinterpret it and that could be very dangerous, depending on their state of mind. (I'm actually kind of shocked that Armchair General so casually talks up "self-therapy" considering, again, how dangerous such advice could be to someone in a vulnerable state.) I hope that clarifies what I meant when I said, "Trying to tackle your pain head on can lead to far worse things".

Dagh! What other bargains have I missed? Today's (for anyone who's interested) are here: http://store.steampowered.com/sale/ea_week (Mirror's Edge for $5/£3!) Spore for £20? Pfft! Right.

I have absolutely no idea what you're referring to.

Well, to be fair I've not tried "self therapy" in precisely the way rigorous way Nach has described, but I don't think it was for me, either way (until I had done formal therapy first, at least). Like everyone I've attempted to deal with life's problems on my own, and with the help of those around me. I've kept diaries, done regular exercise, given myself time to relax, etc., all the things that help, but even with all that, sometimes a specific type of external guidance is needed. I do completely agree, however: The only person that can help you is you. I'd also like to expand on what you said. Formal therapy might not work for certain people for many different reasons. Sometimes, with the reason being nothing more than it being the wrong type of help for that particular person. But I've heard complaints from people about formal therapy, and after having it work wonderfully for me, I began to see many of the reasons why it might not work for some. Sometimes, for example, it can be down to having the wrong therapist, or being in the wrong situation. More often it can be down to having the wrong mindset (not being prepared to actually discuss issues completely openly and honestly), or even the wrong attitude (expecting the other person to do any of the work, or give you any answers -- that's not their job!). From my experience (from hearing friends and relatives talk about their issues), it's usually a combination of the above, but mainly hindered by one factor: Attitude, meaning that you have to really want to help yourself. If there's anyone here considering formal therapy, then please don't be put off by Armchair's experience, but also be honest with yourself. There's no point in trying to push yourself into therapy if you genuinely don't want to get to the bottom of your problems. To actively fight and work through them in the way that Nachimir described. To want to stop the cycles you're repeating, and really change. And yes, there will be pain and frustration along the way. Also, don't be put off from not having immediate results. One of the most common things people do with therapy is project their problems with life onto the therapy sessions themselves. This can make it feel like a waste of time, or worse, like an example of the very type of problem you're actually trying to avoid in the first place (this is something I made myself feel, until it was pointed out to me that I might be doing it -- and then I had to admit to myself that I was). The human mind is great at conning itself into doing things that aren't actually in its best interest (as Nach so vividly described), so I'd suggest at least giving it a month before moving on and trying something/someone else. Also judge your progress by how you feel walking out of the session, NOT by how you feel before going in. Just like going to the gym, you'll often give yourself very convincing reasons not to go: "I feel fine this week." "I just REALLY don't feel like going." "It's not doing me any good, I don't know why I bother." etc etc etc. So remember how you feel coming out of the session, and use this as a point of reference. It's precisely because of all these potential pitfalls that I really do think there are benefits to formal therapy over attempts at self-therapy (for most people, anyway). From my own experience: People are utterly useless at being able to objectively see themselves and tend to go around in circles without realising it. Think about it: How many people do you know who exhibit this behaviour? People who have the same problems again and again? They'll often convince themselves that they're "never doing that again", or they're "better now", but then you see them and they're falling into exactly the same patterns of behaviour. It's very easy to spot things like that in someone else, but very hard to do it with yourself. For me, having something external to myself was absolutely essential to being able to truly gauge my progress. For Nachimir, a diary was enough to fulfil this role, but I think having another person can be even better, if you're able to completely honest with them, at least. The other benefits of formal therapy over self-therapy, I would imagine, are exactly the same types of benefits you'd get from having a personal trainer compared to going to the gym of your own accord: 1. Consistency - you won't slack off when you don't "feel like" dealing with your issues, 2. External support - something completely lacking with "self-therapy", 3. Objectivity - Having someone to keep you on track and recognize when you're falling into familiar bad habits, and 4. Professional experience and knowledge. If "self therapy" works for you, then great, that's wonderful, but for the I think for the majority of the world, it probably doesn't (unless they're able to be very strict with themselves). People find it very difficult to solve these problems without external assistance. Saying that, for those interested in attempting some form of therapy, I'd suggest giving Australia National University's "Mood Gym" a go. It's nothing more than a website, but it uses the same techniques that you'd be exposed to in Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. I suppose this is really a form of "self therapy", like Nachimir described, but it's a bit more formalised and is based on accepted medical research. It's actually very similar to Nachimir's own realisations, recommendations and experiences, and if you find it working for you, I'd personally recommend taking it further and finding a CB therapist in real life. Even though it's just a website, I've personally found it very helpful at difficult/stressful times in my life, and it only takes a few minutes a week. Give it a go: http://bit.ly/Moodgym

Fuck! That's ridiculous...! This is AFTER the update? You should make a video if you can and post it on some official forms or something. Then you should give me your copy 'for testing purposes' while it gets sorted out

Wow. That's one incredible post, Nach. It's very inspiring to hear about your battles! I guess we all have our issues to deal with. I love the idea of being able to re-program ourselves. There's always a problem with giving advice over the internet, though, and that's that it can be misinterpreted. There are times when you shouldn't be actively pursuing negative thoughts, for example when you're in a state of bereavement. Trying to tackle your pain head on can lead to things far worse things. I guess I just wanted to make the point that your advice isn't for everybody in every situation. Also 'self-therapy' is never going to as effective as formal therapy with the right person, especially for those who haven't even gone through a course of it. For me, formal therapy was fricking amazing. It totally changed my life and helped me deal with a lot of issues I'd been carrying around with me. It's absurd that there should be any stigma with people attempting to sort themselves out. Life is difficult for everyone, and you can make it better for yourself very easily. (Although it can be costly depending on your age and country, unfortunately.) Thanks for your advice, though, Nach. Life has been increasingly difficult of late due to loneliness after breaking up with my girlfriend, and your post is very inspiring. Makes me want to take the bull by the horns and proactively sort it all out!

Fuck me, that's pathetic. That's what passes for "news" over there? Christ. Could they have glamorized the crime any more? Could it have been any more sensational? Fucking absurd.

What's weird is that he must know the gigantic torrent of abuse that would inevitably follow... And still he did it.

At least yours turned up. My work mate's laptop has "been delivered" to someone called "Chris", who was apparently in a "wooden hut". Yep.

Congrats!

Yeah, it's kind of convinced me more that it isn't quite right. I suppose in hindsight you could say it was "80s ignorance", but then I'd fear I was being an apologist. I'm glad I finally got to have the discussion I tried to have all that time ago, though

Oddly, I didn't have issues with the black family in the McFly house, simply because it never struck me that it could be taken as a "bad" thing. I just saw it as a very different family living there. (I wonder if it speculated he was black in the script, or during casting?) It's interesting to note that Zemekis laughs during the commentary to the first film that (and I quote) "black militants" complained that it sucked that the film showed a white kid inventing rock and roll. Hmm. I think you might be being a bit dismissive of the Mexican thing, though. Saying "eh, Chico!" is a pretty stereotyped and offensive thing to say. (You have to remember that Cheech Marin is Hispanic.) I know it doesn't feel like that here with Mexico being a million miles away (and indeed, it isn't here, really), but believe me, in LA, it's a very different feeling. Imagine a white UK actor dressing as a "Pakistani gentleman", in the most stereotypically offensive garb, and approximating a very poor facsimile of an accent, while saying very offensive stereotypical things ("Taste my curry!"). Yeah, I think that's pretty much the cultural equivalent. I tried to bring it up on the HomeTheaterForum, but it was shot down.

Am I the only one who thought that was painful?

That's a pretty deep analysis... and still on shaky ground. The movie cliché is pretty racist, and I can't believe they were being meta/ironic in 1984 when that cliché was at its height (although I wish I could find proof they were). You've also got to put it in perspective: Mexicans do around 90% of the manual labour in LA. They don't have it great there, and there's still quite a lot of racism against them. Talk about walking on thin ice...

Well, it's free. I wonder what you'd make of it? (Not that I've played it, either.)

Looks like I'm going to have to check this out for myself. (Did you play Nanobots?)

Doh! My joke completely missed its mark. Edit: No, it's genius, I tell ya!

For the professional programmer there's StackOverflow.com, too.

I guess I did a bad job of explaining what I meant, sorry. The only bit that was sarcastic was the Ron Gilbert bit, but Mr. T has explained that now. To get back on topic: You liked it then? I was going to check it out myself at some point, so it's good to hear that someone did enjoy it! (I think I share Toblix's disappointment at the idea that it's isn't very good.)

Precisely! Toblix couldn't have said it bett... oh, wait.

The bit that was sarcastic was the ridiculously stupid bit (claiming it was by Ron Gilbert's wife).

Server Side Includes is what you need (unless you're using ASP.NET, which case you could use a Master Page). Yes, I know that was no help, but Google might set you off on the right path (If everyone's answers here aren't good enough.) Also, SuperUser.com is an awesome place to get answers to well asked questions (not that there's any problem with asking here).