Gaizokubanou

Well I certainly don't want to leave doubt on that so rest assured, I don't think that. Nor do I think LPers/streamers are 'leeching' or anything of that sort. Just that I wish public opinion wasn't so hostile about devs negotiating on potential licensing fee (which I want to emphasize, I don't think should be a lot, I'm talking about 5 ~ 15% IF any at all). Like practically I'm actually pretty content with past few years model where devs had the 'legal' nuke option as copyright holders, but would never in right mind exercise it consciously (the whole DMCA with youtube bit, I thought, was more of automation gone awry (hence the comical Ubisoft DMCA against Ubisoft UK, etc.)). But given the probable change in revenue landscape for LPers (I think streamers are relatively safer with subscription model of twitch), I think I'm seeing more LPers pushing in to be paid to play games. Essentially functioning as advertising platform, which is again, legit profession and fine but along with it there seem to be some sort of push to off devs copyright (yes I agree copyrights are pretty broken but it's what we are working with)... like we already have so little real power when it comes to governing LPing market, so to lose any legal ground make me worry that it could easily spill over since copyright and laws in general tend to reference each other like that.

Yeah I think I misread your original argument about piracy. First sorry for going off there, I think I jumped the gun based on wrong reading of your post. You are right that it 'serves' those who would have only passing interest and any bit of monetary barrier would otherwise deter them, in a way that demoes and perhaps even videos can. And yes, the numbers are 'vague' and could have lot of factors swaying in, but that's why the whole 94% bit is interesting because you can take lot of very favorable interpretations but it's still a huge number to cut down from so you would have to take LOT of favorable interpretation to say "no harm done" but then again, that's not what you were saying (unless you were?) so kind of a moot point I guess? As for this bit is not what I am saying. Probably because I misread your original point that my posts could be read as such, but no I don't think people are 'pirating' games by watching videos, with again possible exception to extremely story heavy games where videos actually do serve rough equivalent. About the latter, yeah I'm kind of invested in trying to figure out what's 'fair' since two works are so tied to each other and this entire conversation is well, theoretical at best because I assume none of us here have some sort of large market control. But no it's not some sort of blind "people with more money give to people with less money" (this is quite ironic given that we had something similar going except from opposite angle when it came to government support of art). So I would appreciate it if you would stick to the points about where it makes sense to 'draw the line' when it comes to licensing and stuff for games and LP/streaming, instead of trying to talk about me and synth's motives because this Is really condescending. You are practically doing 'you mad bro?' at this point man, let's dial that back because I'm genuinely interested in discussing where the good cutoff point is. Me and synth thinks it should trickle down to LPers and streamers. You and others don't. There were interesting ideas about that, so my apologies for going bit tangent on piracy bit (guess I did go off first (bit of hot button cause again, seen one market just disappear due to it)), let's stick back to that.

That ought to be super hostile relationship though, right? I wonder if it's worth keeping that influence since he will likely have to constantly 'fight' to maintain it, or just cash out. Like, I have no clue how Destiny is doing, what it means to Bungie's stock & future, etc. :x

Probably awesome as in 'metal', as in just amorally powerful and taking names. In ethical context yes lot of those entities would be horrible. So they probably mean they are fan as a fictional entity that does lot of metal 'stuff'. Like lot of villians that have fanfare have this 'badass' appeal, if that makes sense? Kinda like how new Mad Max created lot of fanfare for the Immortan Jones' toxic patriarchical culture. Lot of those fans probably have enough sense to say no to the whole sex slave part, but the whole chrome + witness culture seems 'metal'. Or in Gundam, Zeons get crazy fanfare despite them being pretty close to Nazi Germany minus specific ethnic genocides (they just do general mass killiing).

Bungie vs the composer Marty O'Donnell is going well for Marty~ http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/04/ex-bungie-composer-marty-odonnell-wins-epic-legal-fight-with-former-bosses/ So... 20% of Bungie stock... that must be a lot?

I'm not even close to being an expert, it's just difference in perspective. Growing up in korea, the face of colonialism was Japan, and USA is the liberator. Cold War globalization was USA protection against China/North, and hyper rapid development post WW2 meant while being a historically a colonial victim with even few surviving members of such times (my granparents who are still somehow alive lived through Japanese occupation), talking about colonialism as some sort of identity is also extremely jarring. Then there is the surrealness for the current gen like until early 1980s the country was ran by dictators. It is still fucking weird that one more infamous dictator's daughter is the elected president... Like here and there people talk about getting rid of marks from colonialism like reviving true Tae Kwon Do (modern version is straight up clone of Karate because original is thought to be completely gotten lost during the occupation), there is that island (Liancourt Rocks?) that every year riles people up against Japan, there was that bit around late 1990s of renaming the elementary school system because name was japanese, and they wanted to either demolish or do something with the Japanese occupation HQ (one silly idea even talked about lowering it to the ground and putting glass floor on top so koreans would be able to look 'down' on it). Then you have your hyper racism, depicting chinese and pigs and japanese as some fanatical suicidal dogs, everyone not korean as inferior. Japanese colonialism and post WW2 (technically facilitated by Japanese colonialism itself to a degree) hyper rapid economic growth really throws wrench into lot of white-colonialism-to-non-white interpretation I read here, and hence my major discomfort on putting so much emphasis on 'white' ethnic identity to imperialism. Edit: to provide another contextual difference, I've noticed that in the west there is lot of echoing back to the Roman Empire... in korea it is actually China that's seen as the de-facto historical imperial entity with more lasting history, and instead of Caesar with his conquest of Gaul and fight against Pompeii, it's Romance of the Three Kingdoms with Liu Bei vs Cao Cao. So in a way, modern growth of China is not even 'rise of china' as headlines read in western papers... rather it's china returning to normal history with its defeat against western colonial powers seen as more of historical oddity. Obviously not everyone in Korea see things the way I describe, and I kinda had to over simplify lot of complex moods and views. Edit2: Oh and founding father thing with USA is also kinda interesting because the 'founding father' of Korea are either suicide bombers/assassins against Japanese authority (I mean American ones were rebels but it ultimately cumulated into more conventional struggle with most of them taking part in nation building post independence) or some fictional dude born out of a fucking egg :x

I think it's so unlikely to amount to anything. No I don't have numbers to back that up, but it would take one to convince me otherwise because the other explanation (people play pirate games just to play them) makes so much more sense to me. Like you have official demos not mounting to more than 3 ~ 5% on average (read it from two sources I think... one was article by dev on Droid Assaault and another from Assault Android Cactus dev? think both were bit taken back but then their peers kinda gave back same numbers). So at BEST, I'm willing to entertain 5% and even that is pretty freaking generous.

That one number was pulled out of Volgarr The Viking and Dev Tycoon. http://www.destructoid.com/only-4-of-volgarr-the-viking-players-bought-the-game-264070.phtml http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/ Topic of piracy always tik me off cause while I don't have the delusion to claim that all pirated copies are lost copies, the opposite view seems rampant (that piracy has no effect) and having witness one gaming market (Korean one) fundamentally change from rampant piracy, it's like aagggggggg

This is something on my mind because it addresses all of my discomfort holding discussion on this forum. Still pondering on that bit a lot cause on one hand to talk about big pictures things have to be generalized, but that's still highly troubling. Technically intersectionality ought to prevent much of such spill over but it is something I feel like I so rarely see (for specifics, when we talk about colonialism and its impact, Japan is like, never brought up as a colonial power).

Pretty much in agreement with lot of what syntheticgerbil is saying, but just wanted to comment on that bit about 'piracy to demo' bit. Yes some people do contend that and I despise that argument cause I think it's total horseshit. When legit demos have contribution ratio to roughly 3 ~ 5% of total sales (basically, demo don't really affect our purchases) and pirated copies can make up to 96% of total played copies for smaller games with no DRM, it kills the whole "we pirate cause we want a demo" for me as having a notable aspect when dealing with having any noticeable impact. So yeah people will sometimes contend that but why do we even want to set that as any sort of a baseline for what things ought to be on a market scale? People contend nonsense all the time, doesn't mean we should follow them to setup a new middle line.

I'm so torn among MGSV, this and Act of Aggression. I mean ultimately I will end up with all 3, but I must do so in order.

I think the music analogy stands pretty well because we weren't talking about music license you buy to listen to, we were talking about music license you can buy to remix/alter for your own creative output with commercial value. Of course it could be argued that music thing is still inadequate comparison because with music, you start with a music as the medium and end with music as the medium so you are in a way, competing with the original so compensation seems more necessary. While with games and LP/Streaming, you start with game as a medium and end with a video (or in case of streaming, some sort of social event), two disparate medium. And the latter is interesting because that's opposite of my perception of the prevalent attitude. I mean I do see LPers and streamers get lot of hate, but rarely do I see that hate linked to "devs deserve more", rather, I just see the hate train begin and end at hating the LPers and streamers mostly out of jealousy. So I'm bit lost when you say we need to re-assure players of their contribution... because I'm just having a hard time seeing how exactly that was ever threatened outside of few edge cases where rabid fandom attacks anyone who doesn't appreciate their favorite games. Yeah translating awareness as compensation is tricky because LPers who can boost that factor often also had enough money to pay out... and companies that could demand the payout, like you said, often didn't need that payout. I do recall specifically when someone mentioned to NL that someone has been uploading his video (no commentary, just straight up upload) and he was like "well if the dude isn't getting some crazy view count then who cares" but yes he was also kinda chill about the idea of LP of a LP although also kinda laughed about the weirdness of that whole concept.

Problem with that theoretical is that it is so far from realm of probability because big LPers and streamers are celebrities where the main profit comes from their charisma. What I mean is, whatever answer they might give, it is so meaningless because they know they are very much protected from such situation actually causing them noticeable harm. ... Actually you know what, I just recalled some of them getting very upset when their videos were used by others as point of reference for the game in question WITHOUT the video being cited back to them. I mean I think they deserve citation but the response went so far as to "you need my permission!!!" so I guess that's our answer for some.

When dealing with entities like Disney I think the distinction is really hard to ethically justify because the license passed hands multiple times and is now being held by an entity that is clearly not even a human (person by law but not an actual person). But when dealing with smaller original works distinction is clear. Or like I did, flip the situation. Say you make an original story and Disney creates 'fanart' of it for profit without including you. The more I think about this topic, so much of it really depends on the parties involved :x Like deadpan mentioned earlier, I think this is extremely divergent within the games medium. There are something like board games or minecraft where the play distribution model makes perfect sense. Then there are extremely story/setpiece driven games where bulk of the performance is carried out by the video game itself. I think almost all multiplayer sessions can also safely fit into play distribution model pretty safely...

I share your sentiment. I'm trying to get appropriation but outside of the really clear cut ones where the appropriation is straight up racist caricature or appropriator is actively participating in the oppression, I don't get it. But I also get that I'm not the default position that's in consideration when topic of appropriation comes up so that's why I'm trying hard to get it. But I don't get it outside of those clear cases, perhaps because of my personal experience with cultural identity.

Yeah movie comparisons are off in that regard, but syntheticgerbil's music comparison stands very well. Say group of popular musicians took off and their works are basically nothing but remixing other people songs (I don't mean to entertain the thought that perhaps every piece of modern music is just remix of collective human musical achievements... I mean these guys will use the source material, etc. leaving no doubt as to where the original song came from) without any license. And they are using it for profit. With big record companies I'm sure we are all going to lose any bit of sympathy since they are busy fucking over others, but otherwise that would be pretty detestable. The music comparison stings a lot every time I think about it, because it's like... a game is, for the most part, collection of variety of mediums ranging from picture, animation, and of course, music... so by combing them with gameplay, they all suddenly deserve less protection according to the popular opinion (legally individual pieces still stand so people worry about games with licensed music) because...??? But on the flip side, I would also hate to see rigid protection laws + big license holders locking down creative ventures... this is where I probably differ from syntheticgerbil in that I think many unlicensed fanarts should be monetizable(sp? is this even a word?) because they are so different from licensed products and hence ultimately adding to the society by producing works of value that would otherwise never have existed... so long as small (I want to emphasize small here, but probably scalable) part of the profit is returned to the license holder to perhaps prevent abuse (imagine how gross it would be if Disney did this and just fucked over every smaller writers by making movies based on popular books and claim "lol fanart that would otherwise not exist"). Ultimately like problemmachine, I and Twig mentioned before, something that has to be scalable based on the strength of the parties involved because one law cannot fairly cover both extremes. I would have liked to see devs getting say, 5 ~ 25% cut from videos based solely on their work WITHOUT being called out by LPers and the common opinion as being 'greedy'. But the current ad revenue model where this would have made sense is collapsing rapidly, so without ad revenue, not sure how this new landscape should look.

Yeah I think this is a good framing of my frustration overall.

I get syntheticgerbil's frustration at the scene because going off on what you said Problem Machine, yeah why should anyone be double dipping... except one side has been double dipping blatantly over past few years by strong arming their celebrity status vs lot of unknown devs. I get this is just how market works, that few celebrity players will have more value than vast faceless developers because they are in higher demand, but it really pissed me off whenever some of them try to spin their ad revenue income as somethiing that is ethically beyond reproach when their share (not whole, parts of it) is threatened. For specifics I like Angry Joe's reviews but whenever he goes on tandrum about ad revenue situation, he always goes off on this tangent about how companies actually should pay him for promoting (this was back when he was primarily doing reviews... wut... I think now he just went full on ad service player) their product and that mentality (which, by my casual and personal observation, seem to be pretty pervasive cause these e-celebs were busy spreading it as the default) just drives me nuts. But yeah, not all youtubers are same, ton of them say they are happy with clean split model... too bad it just doesn't seem to work out because of market dynamics. My favorite e-celeb probably has to be NorthernLion for this reason... he's one of few LPer/critic/streamer who actually seem to show genuine respect for the developer scene (to the point he is almost personification of that goofy stereotypical 'nice-Canadian') and I wish people like him best of luck amidst the changes to ad-revenue e-celeb market. But it just feels like people like him are the few whenever copyright issues surface.

This is a full on strategy game. Heck yeah, confusion is in the game (love that effect from RTK series), gonna keep eyes on the price, might just buy it soon either way since I haven't had a good session of Koei strategy games in a while.

Not sure what to think of the FLCL remake... original was like a good half of my tween psyche, and its animation quality still holds pretty well. Also lot of personality of each episodes are pulled from the different people directing each episodes. And FLCL is all about the execution, as the actual 'story' is kinda like eh? So to 're-make' the execution part... unless they get all the original directors, doesn't seem too good :x

That actually sounds badass. If I were to go to one of those I would just mix and match everything. Personally big fan of outfits that feature half-cloaks, like poncho or those things that doge of venice wore. And pharos had those sick blue-gold headdresses that always looks really awesome. plus kilts... Good thing I'm not that big into fashion hur hur :x

When you say christian, I assume he's one of protestant branch and not say, catholic or russian orthodox or another less well known variation? Because the protestant branch I grew up with is all about how humans are all pure shit and are forever doomed for eternal damnation so judging another human is considered as at best futile effort and at worst despicable because you are showing contempt towards God that loves all of you equally despite how fucked we all are. Like, I think lot of that is deeply rooted in core principles of protestanism, that we are saved only by the grace of God and cannot save ourselves due to our own good deed. So to hear protestants judging others as not worthy is like duuuuude you missed the main note?

Valorian you are so on top of these things~! And dang that game looks good. DANG good, like this sweet perfect mixture of RTK series and TW!

Isn't that like really old tech? Think it's just hand-me/scaled down from failed/canceled anti-ICBM defense weapon platform. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1 If you were already aware of this and just wanted to present it comedic fashion then sorry for not catching that.

Dang it's not there in the past broadcast~ At this rate I may end up preferring PA:Titans over Sup Comm~