Gamebeast23456

Trying to move this discussion in another direction, the idea that bothers me slightly about this whole affair is considering whether or not Lynch does think Leland has his share of the responsibility. I've even echoed this idea before, and it's comforting in a way to think that he does have a more nuanced, deep understanding of abuse- but I'm just not sure if this is really supported in the text. Much of the time it seems like arguments for Leland's partial culpability spawn from a desire to make sure the message of this show isn't "Rape and incest can't exist because some people have deep issues and are malicious, it's actually demonic possession." Is this extrapolation on the part of the fans? Or are there more concrete reasons that I'm just overlooking for why Leland is a greater partner in this affair than just a victim. I think of the "I thought you knew" line, and I don't know who's delivering it. I guess that's the problem with demonic possession. Edit: It's also really weird to lay so much at the feet of Lynch, but it makes more sense for him than many other directors.

My original question was actually more hypothetical and probably less useful than how you interpreted it. I meant, quite literally, what if this film was exactly the same, but Lynch's name was not attached to it. It's a silly question, first of all, because as director Lynch was obviously hugely important to the finished product- it could not exist without him in it's actual state. Regardless, I was thinking at work last night about if the perspective on Twin Peaks specifically and David Lynch in general has changed in such a way that has influenced the critical re-evaluation of the film. I'm thinking back to discussions we've had in the past about initial critical reactions to Twin Peaks and the show's meteoric rise and fall from grace. Throughout that entire time frame, there was a prevailing question that many critics came back to- is this show something more than a flash-in-the-pan, style-over-substance pop cultural phenomenon. Was there something more artistically powerful about this series than just the zeitgeist. As people have pointed out, in 1992 Twin Peaks itself was sort of a joke. It had ultimately failed commercially, and I would also argue artistically, and so I imagine many of the critics of that time (adults who had grown up in the seventies or earlier), felt somewhat betrayed by this series and the promises of David Lynch. What may have once been exciting, to see soap opera antics meshed with horror and surrealism in this magical town, now appeared to just be smoke and mirrors. In the current climate, and even extending a few years back, Twin Peaks has become even more of a cult hit, a piece of counterculture that is beloved for many of the reasons that it was originally baffling to reviewers in that time period. Lynch's style, especially in Peaks, has been further validated by shows like LOST and The Sopranos and he has influenced many of the current critics and cultural commentators. Circling back around (haphazardly as usual), I think this general re-evaluation of Lynch's work on this show has resulted in a more fair analysis of the film, but it has also, probably, tipped it the other way. I still feel like some of the more, well, bad choices in this film are glossed over or explained because Lynch's techniques and styles are more appreciated now. People may even be more likely to read quality in to shakey material because of how TP has been re-evaluated. This post is messy, but I hope I'm getting my point across decently. If not, I could try to be more specific.

Something I've been thinking about but that is still ultimately underdeveloped: do you think that if the director of this film wasn't David Lynch, would people find so much of it as good as they do? A theme that was mentioned a few times during the cast was the consideration of how involved David Lynch was in the creation of this film, beyond being the director. While I do agree that the film takes many later Twin Peaks ideas and re-forms them in a more Lynchian image, it still felt like several details of the film would be kind of weak if we didn't have the "Oh, well it's David Lynch and the things that interest him don't necessarily line up with mainline Peaks." First of all, the entire structure of this film is strange the more I think about it. The first half hour, in my opinion, isn't very good. You have Gordon Cole who wants Agent Desmond to come, and then it cuts to the completely bizarre school bus scene. Unlike a lot of iconography in Peaks this scene just felt completely nonsensical and pointless- what is Desmond involved in here? What element of Desmond's character or his circumstances is explained by showing this? I don't think it can even fall back on Lynch's obsession with non-sequiturs, because I didn't feel like it was very powerful as an image. Moving on, they go to an airfield where Sam and Desmond speak to Cole, hilarious as ever, and then are shown the dancing lady. In the next scene, it was revealed to be a coded message, a message that only Desmond is equipped to understand. Why is Sam not given this information immediately? If the point of the whole display is to obfuscate this information (from some force that isn't seen), then why is it fine for Desmond to just tell him everything a few minutes later, except the rose? While the dancing lady is a more striking image, it's still connected to a series of events that seem completely nonsensical. Then, there's all the Deer Meadow stuff. I thought this was fine, but again the entire episode seems like a mistake early on (not having Kyle to do the whole film) that someone just had to see to completion. You then go to the Philadelphia scene which I've already asked about. I don't understand what the relationship is between Cooper's dreams and the security camera scene, I don't know who Bowie is and I don't know what relationship he has to anyone else on an emotional level. He's just, from the looks of it, an FBI guy who saw some shit- some, again, indecipherable shit. Whatever the plot is, it got lost in these like crazy hazy crossfades where everyone is losing their minds in a room that has no relation to anything from the show... When I watched this I just felt, When does this get good; when will there be at least a comprehensible framework for insane shit to happen? I feel like if Twin Peaks proper was made in this strange style, the show might've just began with Coop chomping down on garmonbozia in the Black Lodge and then would be followed up with Laura in plastic. There just didn't even feel like a narrative framework for it. The film, luckily, did get pretty good by the end. As everyone has said, the actual emotional relationship between Laura and Leland was haunting and powerful. But even through that, I felt I was like pulling at little real human emotions in between a film that felt disjointed in many ways. As an example of something that was also hard to follow, I didn't get what was going on with the paintings. I may have just not been at my most observant, but it felt confusing as heck. Is it emblematic of what Fire Walk With Me is that there is an actual conversation about what the Tremonds' names are? Shouldn't we know the names, if names do exist? I didn't know their names when I finished the film. I genuinely feel like this is a decent film whose flaws are unfairly handwaved because David Lynch. Characters in this film are noticeably different than they were in the episodes Lynch himself directed and helped write. I feel like he, as a storyteller, should've been at least slightly more careful about, well, lore and backstory. I assume Lynch wants you to care about the characters in Peaks, because he clearly does, but I don't possess his deep insights into who they are- the only things I know about them are based on how they are portrayed and how they respond to different circumstances. It just feels incomplete and far too dismissive of the source material. Stories ultimately boil down to characters, and while some characterizations in this film are better than they were in the show (Leland and Laura, even Donna to an extent), I still think in many ways Lynch does a disservice to things he created. Edit: Also, in response to saying some of this info was in the Missing Pieces- like in Alien 3, the extra content may make a film better, but if it's not there in the Theatrical Release of a motion picture, that is the directors fault. I shouldn't have to get on a forum just to understand the relationship between events in a film because the real explanation is buried in deleted scenes. That's not excusable.

Okay, I have to ask, cuz I feel dumb, what is the actual purpose of the whole security camera thing? What is Cooper doing?

My Twin Peaks circumstances: I first tried to watch the show probably two years ago. I got mid-way through season one, then stopped for reasons that are unknown to me. When the podcast started up, I felt it would be a good time to return to the show and finish it. I outpaced the podcast pretty early on, but I've been saving Fire Walk With Me until the cast got to it. I was slightly anxious going into this film because I'd heard many times on the forums that it was essentially a horror movie. I'm not great with the horror genre, Alien is pretty much the furthest I'll wade into horror (which isn't a particularly scary film). When I watched even Twin Peaks it seemed to inspire many nightmares, as if it opened up something in my subconscious in a strange way. The nightmares, as far as I remember, didn't really have anything to do with the show-but they came at the same time. Regardless, I'm rambling. This film wasn't a particularly scary one. There were a few scenes where I felt like I needed to cover the screen with my hand and look away, but mostly it just left me with dread. Sheryl Lee and Ray Wise were both excellent. They were stand-out actors in the show and they continued to kill it in the movie. The whole dynamic that existed between Laura/BOB/Leland brought to life the vestigial horror we witnessed in the series proper. I want to echo a comment Lostinthemovies I had (though not with the same ultimate opinion). This film felt incongrous with the show. Not in a bad way, not implying that it couldn't be good if it wasn't classic Peaks, but it just felt strange to see goofy Leo participating in a drug-den rape (though that event is explained in the show), it felt strange when Bobby lights that dude up (where did that gun come from? Does Bobby always have a gun, or was he expecting to need it? How did Bobby outdraw what seemed to be a career criminal as a highschool loser? Why did that shootout even happen?) I appreciated that they were willing to tell that story, that felt so distinctly real and intense. I'm glad Lynch managed to sow some more ambivalence into the story; during the series Leland seemed so obviously the victim that it changed the story from one about incest and murder to demonic possesion and that felt cheap. I liked how in FWWM it was clear that it took two to tango, that Leland wasn't blameless. Hell, I even appreciated Badalementi's score. For the first time, his music was totally welcome to my ears. Though, when I listen to the soundtrack alone, I have to question why he has this weird "Strange Fruit" knockoff, the Sycamore trees song. Weird. Overall, I have mixed opinions. It wasn't a bad movie, by any means, but it left me feeling confused and slightly drained.

I feel like the less I know about the Black Lodge, the Red Room, etc the better. There may very well be lore answers to these questions, but I'd rather not see them. To me, the power of the world BOB came from and that Twin Peaks is closely attached to is that is unknowable in many ways. If it just exists as a series of weird things, that's fine by me.

So, I lost track of these discussions as I sort of blew through the show, but now I can circle back and discuss a little. There was a slight rush of relief as I finally felt this saga come to a close; it began when I first saw the Earle shit, and it has finally ended now that he is both gone from the show and the podcast. What a goober. I feel bad for the actor because, as the cast has pointed out, he seemed to be a competent actor given an intensely crappy role. I thought this episode was incredible. I watched it under the same conditions as the episode where Maddie was killed, on a saturday night in a pretty large room. It felt intensely rewarding to reach a point where the show was finally good again, and I loved all the Black Lodge stuff. I saw Earl's encounter with Good Killer Bob as an actually quality end to Windom's misbegotten character arc; he finally encountered the raw evil of BOB, and for all his horse outfits and shock collars he couldn't come back from that. It almost felt like Lynch's brand of evil was just dominating the goofiness of Windom with what was good about the show at first.

I wish I had listened along week-by-week instead of jumping ahead. Perhaps I could've found some solace in this group watch. These are some shitty episodes.

I've heard lots of complaints about different elements of this Remastered game. I'm just glad that Grim Fandango exists and is almost totally functional on modern OSes for a reasonable price.

Damn, I knew I should've gone with Steam. Oh well. Video gamessss

How can I update through GOG?

I too had a pretty buggy experience. It got to where when I tried to skip the intro cutscene on the second time I tried the game and the video skipped but the audio kept playing over gameplay. Its feeling extremely hitchy. Maybe I should just try to get a little further on before I judge it though.

I think an ever bigger problem is when studios just up and edit things with very little interest in contacting anyone involved with the show creatively. From what I remember, since The Wire was mentioned, David Simon (one of the shows creators) basically was assumed by HBO to be too busy to make sure the conversion was properly done. Which is kind of absurd if you know about Simon, because OF COURSE he would want to supervise. He had to fight to get involved, and eventually only conceeded that the finished product was different but still worthwhile.

The roadhouse scene might be the most incredible sequence I've ever seen on a television show. This entire episode was just a punch to the gut, it was so deeply horrific on so many levels, but it also had an air of tragic predictability. Of course it would happen again- why not? I really have to applaud everyone who worked on this episode. They really encapsulated all the horror and beauty of the show in those scenes.

Is there a way to rent and stream FWWM or do I have to buy the DVD?

It's been awhile since I've perused these threads, so I don't know if people have discussed this. Every time guys on the cast are confused by Lynch's fascination/enjoyment of Badalamenti's music, I feel like we really need to go no further than Lynch's own discography to see why. He does on a rather frequent basis something analogous to what Badalamenti does to jazz/rockabilly/big band music to electronica and blues. In summation, Lynch seems to find creative fulfillment in very bizarre ways.

One thing I'm confused about is what The Giant means when he says "The question is: Where have you gone?" In response to Cooper asking where he came from. That's always befuddled me.

Somewhat unrelated anecdote. My mother was cognizant of pop culture and was around when the Twin Peaks phenomenon happened. As I was rewatching the show, and talking to her about it, she decided she also wanted to watch. She got to the reveal of , and last time I talked to her she said she lost interest after that. I really wish a way existed to erase like six episodes of garbage and keep it cohesive to keep it interesting even to people not invested in a rewatch. Then again, I imagine that you could pretty much skip five to six episodes and lose very little.

Man, Major Briggs. One of the best sleeper characters in the series. In some ways, it's criminal how long it took for the show to acknowledge him as a character. Just this strange, articulate, brilliant character. Man it sucks that Davis passed.

Comparing the Season One finale with the season two premiere is pretty interesting. Where Frost, the more natural writer, layered on intrigue after intrigue, Lynch completely pulled back from that and made me kind of squirm. There's the iconic and excruciating moments of inactivity, where Cooper is just laying on the floor, almost withdrawn completely. Then there's The Giant. I'm conflicted on The Giant. I think lots of self indulgence in how he's written, with the whole riddles thing, and yet he also has a very powerful air. Whereas the dancing scene from early in S1 was completely new and striking, this was another look at the same basic idea.

I honestly never really guessed at it much, mainly because that wasn't as interesting to me.

Retroactively, I think there is a level of goofiness to this ep and how it just stacks intrigue and intrigue on top of each other until the lead is shot. Its the most soap opera concept for an episode. At the same time, as I watched it I remember distinctly being on the edge of my seat. It worked. It was a ploy to get people so interested in what happens next that the show had to go on. Also, I'm interested what conversations there are to be had juxtaposing the pacing and direction of this finale and the next season's opener. But that is probably a discussion for next week.

I think Cooper is like 35 in the show.

And the "In Heaven" song... That song occasionally pops into my head, gets stuck there, and royally creeps me out.

I like the idea too, but I kinda also just like the idea of Audrey being absurdly duplicitous for no real reason when asked about her relationship with Laura