thestalkinghead

i guess i just find male stereotypes funny in a tongue and cheek way i mean "arm wrestling, drinking beer, and destroying stuff" i guess it just didn't translate, i didn't mean all women do is hug, eat chocolate and and argue with their mother/figure it was more a tone setter, which obviously gave the wrong tone

so women don't want games for women? I'm not saying every game that i play should be a male game or even that all games should be specifically targeted i just mean, i would like to play a man game for all it's stupid manliness, i guess i just don't understand why women wouldn't want a game about woman for women

ok i think i should just explain how i think he was totally twisting my words i said: "actually i would like if if we could just make games for men exclusively and women exclusively (and i don't mean dress up barbie) and just be fine with it, so we could just say "here is a game we made for men and here is a game we made for women, it's fine if women like the men game and if men like the women game, but we made them specifically for one gender so don't be a baby about it" maybe i should have also said made games exclusively for homosexual gamers, transexual gamers and every kind of niche market as well but i mean we there should be games for all kinds of people and we shouldn't be afraid to just say "we made a game for women" because there is nothing wrong with making games for specific markets and i said : "there needs to be a point where we can just say we have moved on" means there needs to be a point where we can legitimately say "that we have moved on from the days of tying women to train tracks and things like that" the highlighted part was main game the game and i admitted the things i choose for things for women do were bad and asked for better suggestion, bearing in mind it is set in a normal street in a normal house with normal women so i tried to pick normal things to do and also match up with the male game, and i don't say "doing women things" in a derogatory way i just mean doing things that people who identify themselves as women would do and it is very rude to chop up a persons quote and use the non contextualised phrases or lines as proof that i am sexist

i didn't insult BigJKO out of nowhere, above that is what he said i said, and i said nothing like that at all, then if you go back a page, he split up two paragraphs i had written into two lines to again claim i said something i didn't say, i am not typing things i don't mean, BigJKO was twisting what i said into his own twisted beliefs i was using stereotypes and tropes as shorthand, you can't expect me to answer the question "what would a woman game be like?" with an actual full working description of the game and its themes, i wasn't imagining some horrible sexist game about hot chicks making out and having a slumber party, i was imagining a more serious game where relationships would be the main focus and as an example of one of the things that might happen was that they ate chocolate, it is other people minds that twisten a short game description into a sexist game

i have been told, punctuation, grammar and spelling aren't really what i am good at, and i just had to look up run-on sentences on google

i think equality should be about fairness, not literally treating everybody exactly the same, and example would be the olympics/paralympics, where people are treated fairly not exactly the same, and to be fair and to allow people to compete with their peers it split's up disabled athletes into the paralympics so it isn't unfair and splits up men and women also so it isn't unfair, whereas if all the athletes were treated literally equally all of the athletes would be competing in the same events, which would be unfair to the paralympic athletes and also unfair on women because they couldn't compete with the male athletes in many sports (especially the high profile ones like track and field) because female athletes can't overcome genetics any way @BigJKO you can split up and misconstrue my words all you want, you know you are wrong, stop being so childish

i guess it would depend on whether you could notice more similarities between the genders or whether the game only showed how different they are, but yeah games made by women would be much better for making a game that appeals to women and if done well appeal to men also

well there are Alpha males in existence, but generally these things are with meeting new people and especially if one or both have something to gain, but once the power dynamics have been sorted out (friends) men are comfortable in their place

maybe there should be a game about what it is like to be a woman/man made by women and men, that tries to pass on real life knowledge and experience of being the opposite sex, it would be hard to do because there a subtle differences in the way that men interact with women of how women react to women, vise versa an example could be that there could be a lesson for women about how there is potentially a fight but most likely some kind of power/dominance maneuvers between men when they interact but especially when they first meet and if you miss these power plays and maneuvers or just get dominated you will basically forever have lost some respect from the man you were interacting with and any male observers, there is probably a similar experience with women interacting with other women but i couldn't go into any detail on that. but i wouldn't want it to be like cart life or papers please, i think they are a bit to simplistic and also tedious to play

exactly, my non gross woman game, but i wouldn't pretend that i can actually identify with a woman just because i played a game as a woman

well i think we have got to the semantic part of the argument i just don't think you can truly identify with someone whose life is so different, sure I can try and understand what it would be like to be a woman, but i wont actually understand unless i lived the life of a woman, obviously I'm not saying that i totally understand the life of a space marine but i do know what it is like just to walk into a room and interact with people as a man, i really have no idea of what it would be like to enter a room as a woman and interact with people (the devil would be in the details the nuances and subtleties of being a woman) and that is what i mean when i say i can't truly identify with a woman, and i think saying i could would be reductive and generalised

it's is actually more the testosterone than the adrenaline that makes an effect so that should be testosterone/adrenaline really how can i talk about gender at all without some generalisations and the fact is that you can generalise without it being offensive, look up the different effects that chocolate has on men and women if you think i am just making it up, and I'm not being reductive, I'm being succinct, and I'll just say it again in a different way, differences between the sexes doesn't mean one is better than the other, they are just differences you really need to get over yourself, differences in people are good and we shouldn't pretend that there aren't differences because that is just ignoring the problem altogether, there should be games specifically made for certain demographics and groups not every game has to be for everyone,. seriously how am i just going to gain the knowledge of living life as a woman so i can truly identify with a women, how did you gain this knowledge of what is it actually like to be both sexes? how have these 3.5 billion women gained the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and actually identify with a male character? or is it simply that women don't have the knowledge of what it is like to be a man and truly identify with a male character and are simple making do with what they have, and actually now would like some games about women and with women as the main roles, i wasn't imagining gross woman games but you clearly are and that is your problem, if you can't imagine a game made for women that would be good, get a better imagination

you said that, and if you think i said that you are wrong and look my one sentence description of some of the tasks wouldn't be the whole game, it wouldn't be the hugging and chocolate eating game for babies, they would simply be in the game as an action you can perform, the main game would be about personal relationships which could perhaps lead the player to have a girls night in watching a film eating chocolate and maybe some huggs, is that a totally sexist thing thing to expect a woman to do? because i really don't think it is

who plays the game and who it is designed for is a separate matter, i hope that is clear when i say a game designed for men i don't mean women aren't allowed to play it or even that women won't enjoy it but just simply that men would generally get more enjoyment out of it because it is designed for them. there is obviously a whole nature Vs nurture debate and there are tonnes of scientific studies about it, but scientifically speaking men and women are different, their brains develop differently and are generally more adept at certain tasks than others, I'm not saying one brain is better than the other, but there are tasks that men are generally better at than women (like 3d perception and hand eye coordination) and things that women are generally better at (like communication and multitasking) this doesn't mean that all men are better than women a with hand eye coordination and all women are better than man at multitasking but there is a strong trend that shouldn't just be ignored just because we like to think of everybody as equal. obviously when it comes to cultural differences between men and women it is a lot harder to know what is nature and what is nurture eg. would armwrestling be a manly thing to do if there were no cultural gender bias surrounding it? it's hard to say but men do have much higher levels of adrenaline in their body so an adrenaline fueled task (like arm wrestling) would be better suited to a man and man would enjoy it more because of the increased adrenaline so generally an adrenaline fueled task will be a manly task. so basically men and women are different and there is nothing wrong with catering for those differences, and i was talking about adult games anyway not toys for children so any kind of influence these games may have on an adult would be very small, so the whole "boys can play with dolls to" debate is not really relevant. @BigJKO you said that, not me (but women generally do like chocolate more than men, you can make that a sexist remark if you want but it is fact) obviously a man designing a game specifically for women would be tough and sure it's the weakest part, but it was supposed to match the male activities, so any women with better suggestions for the "chick flick" version of the game are welcome to give them and i think some people may not like the use of "chick flick" but i don't know a better way of describing it

well, I'm glad Dad jokes are a widely known phenomenon, else every time i were to give out a dad joke insult it might be inferred as some weird family issues i am having

by woman game i mean like a "chick flick" or "rom com" of games and the woman game i was imagining was more like heavy rain the chick flick than the sims

i like the sims (not the expansions) but i don't actually think there has been a serious big budget woman game, so the sims was the closest i could come up with, although i would still say it's a woman game, that doesn't affect my manliness that i have played like 80+ hours of the sims 3 and that i don't even know about the other two, i just think it is more a woman game

well it will be hard to explain what i mean by men games and women games without using some tropes and stereotypes as examples unless i was going to write a whole essay on it, but as one example of a game for men would be an all out adrenaline fueled action game about manly men doing manly things (like arm wrestling, beer drinking and destroying things) talking manly shit (like making fun of eachother and honor) and throw in a self sacrificial father figure and you have a man game, basically dumb shit that generally only men like (maybe needs more but it's hard to come up with on the spot, but basically gears of war) now for a woman game (where i will be ripped to shreds but i will try) that would be more about interpersonal relationships and women doing women things (like hugging, chocolate eating and decorating things) and talking woman shit (like complimenting each other and love) throw in a strong, loving but argumentative mother figure and you have a women game, basically dumb shit that generally only women like (i would play that as well and i didn't initially think of it but basically the sims) thats not so say you can't also make gender neutral or less gender bias games as well, but why not just be honest and say this is made for men/women but it's totally cool if both genders play it

@James actually i would like if if we could just make games for men exclusively and women exclusively (and i don't mean dress up barbie) and just be fine with it, so we could just say "here is a game we made for men and here is a game we made for women, it's fine if women like the men game and if men like the women game, but we made them specifically for one gender so don't be a baby about it" but because we are talking about making male orientated games more female friendly i figured i would say that putting a man in an all (good guy) female cast would make the game more male friendly so i am only saying my desires should dictate what a story "needs" as much as Anita Sarkeesian is with every game she bring into the debate. and although i do try and identify with female characters is just isn't the same as with a male character, i don't think being male is my defining characteristic but there are just so many details that just make it hard identify with women, and also if you are discounting that fact that gender is a thing that affects other things why are we even debating about damsels in distress, why can't women just identify with the male hero? @Zeusthecat i totally don't think we should promote old fashioned sexist beliefs and what you are talking about is wrong, but we don't need to get the sexism microscope out to find any little thing that even hints at sexism and magnify it out of proportion eg. woman in hotline miami and ok i admit it i don't mix with loads of different people (and i live in england which is just under 50% christian) so maybe my idea of what "most" men think may not be the best gauge but internet trolls aren't a great gauge either

i didn't say he needed to be the love interest or even that the love interest had to be a man in my first post, and the whiny loser would be the damsel/dude part, in the video she says it's not about the rescue but more the way the woman acts that is the damsel in distress part, so i was talking about a dude/damsel in distress role

yeah sure we learn from society and there may be some old fashioned trends still in existence (there needs to be a point where we can just say we have moved on) but saying society thinks a certain way really means nothing to an individual (especially when they don't believe the majority of society actually thinks that way, just a loud minority) and i just didn't think i would need to go into detail about why there should be equal gender representation in games on a thread titled "feminism" on a gaming forum, i could go into detail about that and maybe copy and past a feminist article about why there should be equal representation in video games and change a few words around, or go into detail about how personally i can always identify easier with a male character than a female one (even if i can identify certain traits and interests i share with a female character) so it is better to have at least one person i can identify with to hook me into the world more or i could just say "because it does" and let you work out why

non contextually maybe, i decide what is a bad representation of men, i can't think for a society i can only think for myself (as if that actually needed explaining) and @Twig i wouldn't care enough to make a kickstarter about it, but i probably wouldn't like some whiny loser that couldn't escape from a paper bag as my main love interest because i wouldn't like him and i would probably feel like it was a bad representation of men

well as a man i think making a dude in distress is equally as bad as making a damsel in distress, i do actually get where women who don't like these tropes are coming from, but you don't fix it by just mirroring it so all the bad parts are given to men, i don't like to see my own gender being misrepresented in a bad way (same with the opposite gender but less personal) and i imagine women feel the same way, don't try and use the "societies assumptions" or your "the privileged majority" argument, because nobody is a society or a majority, i am an individual and i don't think as a society or a majority. my point about a throwaway love interest was that this is simply what most of these female characters are and just because they are a throwaway not well developed character doesn't by itself make is sexist, like an example used was hotline miami (weird to use as an example but ) just because a woman was in about 30 seconds of the game and gets saved because she was a drug addict doesn't just make the game or even the character sexist, she was just a bit part in the story, just because she doesn't get her own act and have an amazingly complicated yet strong story arc where she saves the day doesn't just make the game or her character sexist or even enforce negative gender stereotypes, these characters are just simply not that important. also my point about it needing a male character was because, it did, and if he was just some pig (male stereotype) or a throwaway man character i wouldn't mind, but i would probably have an issue with it if the character was important to the story and is seriously offensive

that is the best one of the three, she at least tries to give some constructive answers to all the problems she is pointing out, but that story she invented could do with a love interest and a male character, so that kinds of just points out why there are these token characters that could be replaced with a dog, and i do think a lot her argument just comes down to "make games with female protagonists" but really that just keeps the same problems but reverses the gender, but it does ask a good question of "how can you make games for both genders that doesn't make one gender the damsel or submissive one?"