Jake

Idle Thumbs 194: A Grave Ghost

Recommended Posts

I feel like the way I played Majora's Mask was that I sorta just lived in the world. At a certain point I was stuck and couldn't make any forward momentum, but I'd still play it for hours a day. It was a very compelling experience, even if I don't think I "enjoyed" it nearly as much as Ocarina, I definitely played the shit out of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys say "ocarina" weird! That's not meant to be critical it just... filled up my whole brain when you said it.

 

Also Pete Rose TOTALLY bet on his own team. It has been impressed on me, with baseball people who are way smarter than me, that him betting on his own team to win when he was the manager has large repercussions over an entire season. If you are betting on yourselves to win every day in a game where the best teams ever lose 40% of their games, you are doing irrational things to try to win beyond what you should be doing.

 

Yep.  Because of the long season, at some point, the manager may have to write off games as unwinnable to just let them go and situate yourself best going forward, because you still have to manage your bullpen guys usage over time.  If this particular game has special significance to you because you've got money riding on a victory, you might choose to use your bullpen in a way that is optimal inside of the specific game but detrimental to your long-term strategic needs.  Or maybe you choose to leave that starter out there for another half-inning because he's really rolling, even though he's already at 110 pitches and you might be putting un-needed wear on him just so you can avoid going to a bullpen guy who's perfectly capable of helping you win the game but who you don't trust to hold the lead above the 2.5 you need to cover the spread.  Or you might use pinch-hitters and runners differently to maximize the chances of winning this one specific game.  The manager's job gives him oversight over long-term strategic planning too, and giving him a bigger incentive to focus on single game results (because he's got money on the line) is a recipe for disaster when it comes to the long-term management.

 

Not to mention the other case, which is just how the information about whether or not you've bet is valuable information for bookies.  The idea that "I only bet on the team to win" is kinda admirable on a surface level, but unless you're betting on your own team every time and betting the exact same amount on every game, you're tipping off valuable information to anyone who knows whether or not you've bet on your team.  If you bet on your team to win regularly, and then a game comes up and you're staying away from betting it, or you place a much tinier bet than normal, you're signaling your team's weakness to the bookies.  If you bet on your team to win infrequently, then each time you decide to bet becomes meaningful because it signals a strong belief that you will win that particular game.   The same also applies if you normally bet $100 and then show up one day and bet $500. That doesn't mean that coach's hunches are always right, but there is significant value in knowing the unvarnished opinion of someone who has insider information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the start of the episode, Jake said that it seems weird that you can stream you Xbox to your PC.

That's probably in support of Lets Players, and other LIVE COMMENTARY ENTERTAINMENT.

 

 

Oh my god this Zelda ad is INTENSE!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh right, Majora's Mask! A long time ago on this forum I already talked about it but now it feels like a legit time to double-down on my sentiment toward that game.

 

So here's the deal. As a huge fan of the Legend of Zelda series, with only Metroid topping it out of every game series ever, MM is my least favorite of all the games. By quite a big margin too. It landed at a time where I was realizing that spin-off / side content doesn't please me in most media I consume (Star Wars and rock bands / musicians being the exceptions), so it automatically lost points for that. The tone definitely wasn't right with me; it isn't what I expect nor want of the series (nor do I think any other game in the series use that tone). But the biggest points are lost on the time mechanic.

 

It made the game feel cumbersome and a chore to play. I understand that they give you all the tools to manipulate time so that you don't miss this or that content, but with no limitations or loss of anything aside from real-world time in having to do that dance with the in-game clock, what was the point of it? Mechanically I mean, as a design. I know that it would support the whole narrative about a moon face-planting into a town, but there's other ways to support that in games. I know that MM isn't meant to be the most linear of games, but maybe non-linearity is a bad thing in some cases. Like this one.

 

Going back to the done, the dark-creepiness falls outside the bounds of what the series has generally had. Even in the "dark" tone of Ocarina of Time, it had an adventurous menacing-evil style to it. Like classic good vs. evil stuff. But it wasn't meant to put you off, it was a very recognizable style. Incidentally that's why I like Wind Waker the most out of all the games. The upbeat tones definitely match the adventurous side, while the darker settings come through in a pretty unique way that feels true to what the original or A Link to the Past wanted to get across.

 

As an aside I never really cared about a timeline being made official. It was fun once in a while to just talk about it in passing BS conversation, or to get those hints once in a while in games that maybe there is a linearity. But what ended up happening was Nintendo pulling a George Lucas; hey man, we don't need the science behind the Force, it being a mystery is the fun of it. There's value in not having all the answers to everything in a series / setting!

 

Edit - Everyone can feel free to point out I'm the lone guy that doesn't like Majora's Mask btw, I'm used to it and am kinda proud of it (because I have actual reasons why I don't like it, rather than just trying to be contrarian).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually don't like MM either.  On paper it sounds like a thing I'd like but in practice it just didn't sit right with me.  I'm not bothered by the way it plays with the Zelda format or tone, it just... wasn't fun.  I didn't quit the game out of frustration or anything like that, I was just never compelled to finish it.  It probably didn't help that kid Link in Ocarina drove me nuts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh right, Majora's Mask! A long time ago on this forum I already talked about it but now it feels like a legit time to double-down on my sentiment toward that game.

 

So here's the deal. As a huge fan of the Legend of Zelda series, with only Metroid topping it out of every game series ever, MM is my least favorite of all the games. By quite a big margin too. It landed at a time where I was realizing that spin-off / side content doesn't please me in most media I consume (Star Wars and rock bands / musicians being the exceptions), so it automatically lost points for that. The tone definitely wasn't right with me; it isn't what I expect nor want of the series (nor do I think any other game in the series use that tone). But the biggest points are lost on the time mechanic.

 

It made the game feel cumbersome and a chore to play. I understand that they give you all the tools to manipulate time so that you don't miss this or that content, but with no limitations or loss of anything aside from real-world time in having to do that dance with the in-game clock, what was the point of it? Mechanically I mean, as a design. I know that it would support the whole narrative about a moon face-planting into a town, but there's other ways to support that in games. I know that MM isn't meant to be the most linear of games, but maybe non-linearity is a bad thing in some cases. Like this one.

 

The mechanical importance of the 3 day-limit is that it allows the inhabitants of Termina to feel like real people with lives outside of Link's feud with the Skullboy. Everybody has a schedule that they stick to; they have goals and desires that you can learn about; they have regrets that you can soothe. That doesn't work if you don't limit the time frame that you have to schedule, both from the perspective of processing power and feature creep. You can't schedule people's days when there's no limit on them, so you limit them. But you want the player to be able to see everything, so you give them the ability to go back. The Last Express does the exact same thing.

 

It's taking the concept behind Warren Spector's "one city-block" idea and applying it to time instead of space. I don't fault anyone for not liking it, but it definitely serves a mechanical purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What does MLG have to do with it?

 

Nothing to do with the previous statement, they just mentioned some MLG tournament in Seoul.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing about Majora's Mask is that roughly 50% of the game's content is sidequests.  And it's real content, too, not just inane collection quests a la the gold skulltula scavenger hunt (although there's stuff along those lines too, of course).  Because there's only four temples, there's 52 heart pieces to find (by far the record back then), and it's one of the few games where going for completion feels justified.  It rewards curiosity and exploration, and punishes whatever the opposite of that is.  I'm interested to see how much this new and improved Bombers' Notebook does to address this.

 

I've brought this up a lot over the years, and here I go again: I think that the conceit of Link losing all of his "perishables" at the end of each cycle (rupees, arrows, etc.) actually restores a trademark of the series that got lost by Ocarina of Time: the need to actually go out and attack shit for resources.  In Ocarina, you always seem to have just enough money, hearts, and ammunition at any given time.  Majora's Mask brings back the need to slash/roll/bomb your way through the overworld to replenish.  It doesn't require any significant amount of grinding, and there's a lot of shortcuts (the giant bird, the combination of your bank and the trading post), but it still feels like they fixed something that got broken.

 

And to serve that fix, the overworld is teeming again in this game.  Hyrule Field in Ocarina was pleasingly massive, but where the hell were all the enemies?  During daylight you have like, occasionally some birds (?), and then there's those skeletons that come only by night.  I don't know if it's because of the Expansion Pack or what, but Majora's Mask has, along with the righteous return of the Zelda theme song, more activity going on in Termina Field...you'll find dodongos out there.  And that makes me happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Epona is in the game.

 

While we're on Majora's Mask talk, I want to point out how awesome the music is, particularly the Clock Town theme. It's among the game themes that have the most iconic resonance for me, probably because you here it so much. I never realized until today that it changes to become faster and more discordant as the days progress. That evolution perfectly captures the game's tone for me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, if only the Zelda series would try bold experiments in tone and structure more often.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really hope the other thumbs (and some forumgoers) check out The Uncle Who Works For Nintendo. "It's an itchio!" (It's also name-your-own-price, including $0.) It was made by my friend Michael, and it's been very exciting to see a thing he worked on be recognized as cool and interesting! I also hope this and other things lead to more horror games that don't have screamers, as I love horror but hate jump-scares to the point where I can't really play many scary games or even watch playthroughs of them. Horror is so much more than a ghost popping out and yelling.

 

Anyway I'd love to hear what everyone has to say about UWWFN (and I'm sure Michael would too!), even if it's just in a forum post or on twitter or whatever! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks jane!

 

Edit: Thank you Sean for writing this. It really and truly speaks to me. The NFL is such a disgusting organization. I've had such an easy time purging things from my life that I like until I realize the producer of that product is a skeeze ball that I'm having a hard time understanding why I can't do it with the NFL. (I have a long list of controversial entries to these lists. The most justifiable and least controversial of them being Roman Polanski & Woody Allen) I guess I come up with all sorts of flimsy explanations about how the Green Bay Packers are community owned, and I will stand to inherit one of those shares someday.

 

The more I think about what you wrote, the more I realize that the most useful thing to examine is why I feel like I need to proselytize to others on why they shouldn't like something.

 

If anyone else interested in hearing my Sports Opinionstm I've been talking about the NCAA over in the Idle Banter -> Sports thread. Otherwise I'll leave this be here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for linking that medium piece Sean wrote. I experience similar feelings when it comes to soccer and the horrible cesspool that is FIFA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The mechanical importance of the 3 day-limit is that it allows the inhabitants of Termina to feel like real people with lives outside of Link's feud with the Skullboy. Everybody has a schedule that they stick to; they have goals and desires that you can learn about; they have regrets that you can soothe. That doesn't work if you don't limit the time frame that you have to schedule, both from the perspective of processing power and feature creep. You can't schedule people's days when there's no limit on them, so you limit them. But you want the player to be able to see everything, so you give them the ability to go back. The Last Express does the exact same thing.

 

It's taking the concept behind Warren Spector's "one city-block" idea and applying it to time instead of space. I don't fault anyone for not liking it, but it definitely serves a mechanical purpose.

The Last Express doesn't let you manipulate time, though (beyond saving and loading I guess?). The mechanic is expressed way better in that game. By allowing time to be manipulated in Majora's Mask, I feel like they're removing the point of the whole thing you just described. There's no permanence or fail-state to anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Last Express doesn't let you manipulate time, though (beyond saving and loading I guess?). The mechanic is expressed way better in that game. By allowing time to be manipulated in Majora's Mask, I feel like they're removing the point of the whole thing you just described. There's no permanence or fail-state to anything.

That's not true. You're not literally manipulating time in the fiction, but click the watch and you can rewind time back to whenever you want in The Last Express.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It rewards curiosity and exploration, and punishes whatever the opposite of that is.

This is interesting to me because it is very much the opposite of how I felt. Because of the constant ticking clock I always felt like any time I spent not clearing a dungeon or otherwise progressing the main quest was time that I was wasting. If I go exploring and don't find anything, too bad start over. If I go exploring and do find something but don't have enough time to finish it, too bad start over. Even though I understand in my brain that the time limit is plenty long to get things done, the fact that it's there at all makes it really hard for me to enjoy the game the way I want to. Part of me wishes I could get past this, since almost everything else about the game appeals to me, but every time I've tried I've ended up getting frustrated after a couple hours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not true. You're not literally manipulating time in the fiction, but click the watch and you can rewind time back to whenever you want in The Last Express.

I had no idea the game had that function in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is interesting to me because it is very much the opposite of how I felt. Because of the constant ticking clock I always felt like any time I spent not clearing a dungeon or otherwise progressing the main quest was time that I was wasting. If I go exploring and don't find anything, too bad start over. If I go exploring and do find something but don't have enough time to finish it, too bad start over. Even though I understand in my brain that the time limit is plenty long to get things done, the fact that it's there at all makes it really hard for me to enjoy the game the way I want to. Part of me wishes I could get past this, since almost everything else about the game appeals to me, but every time I've tried I've ended up getting frustrated after a couple hours.

 

The ticking clock mechanic, while rare, might be one of the most divisive mechanics in gaming. Because it either makes or breaks a game for someone (see all the arguments about Dead Rising's clock). It's not even a love/hate thing, it literally makes a game unplayable for some people while elevating a game from average to splendid for others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jake referring to a clay wrecking ball in Battletoads made me think that a stop-motion claymation aesthetic would be really cool for that game with all the cartoony transformations that occur. Also, if you pre-order it you could get a free wiimote strap.

I never had a 360 so I didn't experience the original Dead Rising, but heard a lot about it's clunkiness in the lead up to 2. When I got that game, I was so shocked because without the timer there would be nothing to that game but pointless meandering. By creating that constraint it gives the low stakes mechanics of that game worth and challenge, unlike Assassin's Creed, for example, where it can easily cross over into feeling completely uninteresting. I'd probably really like Majora's Mask. The only time I tried it as a kid was when my friend brought over his N64 for a day of hanging out. Turns out I was way more excited to play the sci-fi, wrestling, action JRPG Hybrid Heaven. I stand firm in my choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Last Express doesn't let you manipulate time, though (beyond saving and loading I guess?). The mechanic is expressed way better in that game. By allowing time to be manipulated in Majora's Mask, I feel like they're removing the point of the whole thing you just described. There's no permanence or fail-state to anything.

 

As mentioned, you can turn back time in The Last Express (it be be very easy to get into an unwinnable state otherwise). As to your second point, the whole point is that there's no permanence. Everything resets. This accomplishes several things: like I said above, it let's you see different people's schedules at different points, contributing the sense of a world moving without you; you see everybody do the exact same things in the same order, like clockwork, mechanically expressing the game's primary theme of inevitability; you see what will happen to everybody in the town should you fail to complete your quest; you see the effects your actions have on townspeople; and, perhaps most importantly, while the rewind mechanic allows to complete all the sidequests and make everybody happy, it's impossible to do all that in a single cycle, meaning that in the final, "canonical" cycle, some people will be left with their problems left unsolved, which is really interesting in a game that is about solving people's problems.

 

Majora's Mask doesn't work at all as a game if you don't have the 3-day cycle and the ability to reset it. You could maybe design around the holes that removing those mechanics would leave, but at that point you would be making a different game altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now