Jake

Idle Thumbs 190: A Very Spectrum HoloByte Christmas

Recommended Posts

Well that's because gamers expect to be catered to.

Bleh. Fuck power fantasies. I guess that's what a lot of these RPGs boil down to though.

I somewhat agree with you but I don't think just because something is hard you shouldn't attempt it. I think Bioware did a pretty good job in DA:I. I mean making characters and interactions that appear human in games is really hard and I think Bioware has come a long way since they started making these games. I also think that games are really good at establishing an "agreement" of sorts between the game and the player where the game says - Well this isn't exactly how things work in reality but making it like reality would be really hard/expensive/time consuming so I (the game) will just model this aspect of life in a slightly simpler/different way because of reasons just mentioned - Is that ok? And if you accept that then you can at least probably enjoy it and interact with it with that in mind?

 

Because in the end how should you model a romance system in a game where things have to be systemic when in real life it isn't quite that simple? Like Gormongus said making it more complicated (or realistic) often means that most people will find it frustrating or create compulsive behaviors (like love in real life ? haha) Anyway...

 

I feel like a Bioware lobbyist right now but I just think that people who try to do these things should be commended because it's probably not a easy thing to try to do. But that doesn't mean they are free of criticism of course. Are we getting into the - should video games try to model reality argument here?

 

Anyways I just woke up and saw this and started typing... God morning...  and a happy new year or something!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fans are happy to fill in the blanks in fiction when they would like to see two characters get together.  Instead of having an artificial, gamified series of interactions to initiate the "love cutscene", would a stronger system to be one of simply having subtler interactions and hints with several characters and leave it to players to decide what happened off screen?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The romance system in general was really barebones in Baldur's Gate 2. It was basically a series of incidental conversations on a set of timers, based variously on length of time spent in party, other members of the party, and length of time spent in different areas. You'd often wait a half-dozen hours between conversations, all the while unsure if you'd said something wrong that had prematurely ended the romance script, which was easier to do than you'd think. Aerie and Viconia were relatively robust, but Jaheria was famously breakable, relying as it did on a bunch of highly situational triggers that weren't always along the natural flow of play.

 

In short, it was a very unpredictable system that happened almost entirely independent of conscious player choice, which made me resent it as a teenager who wanted to fall in love in a video game but makes me like it as an adult that wouldn't mind the romance options in newer Bioware games to be less of a player-driven thing. Of course, there was conversation in this very episode about how games "teaching" players to wait inevitably has mixed results.

 

Yeah, the mechanics behind was a somewhat like a VN. But as I said in general in a VN romance paths lead the narrative in a direction, meaning the romance would follow all the story to the end, while in other games if often just a side quest that start and end before the main one.

Aeria romance had the "issue" of her talking over and over and over again about her wings until you either got bored or every answer begin too obvious (and repetitive, one of the last dialogues allow you again to make a mistake, but make no sense at all, since why your character would speak something ironic or hurtful about her wings after all this way? since by all other dialogues where you understand her situation). Viconia romance was good, but "harder" because you had to answer things that normally you won´t answer at all (specially if you are roleplaying) and as you said you have no idea if that was the right choice or not. Jaheria romance was slight strange too me, I did play as a paladin, for me, both her and Khalid would be like second foster parents to my main, not to talk friends (I had Khalid in my party all the game) so it sound weird have a romance with her. The only female possible romance was Anomen...

 

Fans are happy to fill in the blanks in fiction when they would like to see two characters get together.  Instead of having an artificial, gamified series of interactions to initiate the "love cutscene", would a stronger system to be one of simply having subtler interactions and hints with several characters and leave it to players to decide what happened off screen?

 

That can work.

 

The difference I felt is having a story which about romances and another is having a story with a very side quest like romance that lead to nothing.

 

Because the worst romance model I seen was the first Fable, where you thown things at people. Now while in a positive way you could marry anyone,that lead to nothing at all. Now to be fair, pointless it kind is one skyrim, the marriage system, still felt as enough to work, I mean, to let player play around with that filling the blanks but still giving a mechanic ingame (and to modders a system might be useful to create something from it).

 

Bioware game have romance as side quest, but still are better that most one around, as is better weaved in the story (so it does not felt as side quest), also DAI features a couple of character, like Scout Harding or Viviane which you can flirt but you can´t romance (to represent, I guess that not everyone can be a romanced). They are trying to please everyone (and mostly important, for the shake of representation), which is great, but requires a much larger cast of characters and a better understanding of fan expecatations, but they appear to be on the right direction.

 

Games like CK2,  but mostly other like Fire Emblem use romance system to support their generation narrative, which I really like and hope to see more.

Edited by Valorian Endymion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what'd also be great is if the characters made moves on you, even if you didn't instigate a conversation and you just behaved in a way that triggered them wanting to talk to you.

As I recall, Kaiden tried to make a move on my Shep. He invited me to meet him at the citadel for drinks then told me he had feelings. I was already in a relationship with Tali so I awkwardly turned him down. I kinda wish they had looked at current romantic status before triggering the sequence honestly. It made him seem like kind of a dick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I recall, Kaiden tried to make a move on my Shep. He invited me to meet him at the citadel for drinks then told me he had feelings. I was already in a relationship with Tali so I awkwardly turned him down. I kinda wish they had looked at current romantic status before triggering the sequence honestly. It made him seem like kind of a dick.

The last two sentences are honestly a bummer to me. Why should the game cater to you like that? What is wrong with an NPC being forward and you judging him to be a dick?

It bums me out that most BioWare romancing stuff seems centered around the player always feeling like a godly puppet master in control of all sexing. I know the reason the games are like that is because if something unfavorable or out of the player's control DOES happen -- if there is uncontrolled deviation from the llayers godly plan for their character -- designers have a justified fear that the player will judge the NPC in question, and the game, and the developers incredibly harshly (as opposed to treating it like a random life event or judging themselves poorly or any other nuanced and considered reaction you might have in actual real life where you know you don't have ultimate control over the systems that govern you).

In the Walking Dead we basically had to tell players "you're right. You made the right choice. You did it correctly," or have a character in the group always say "I would have done the same as you if it was my choice," "there is nothing you could have done that was better than that," at every single decision junction, because unilateral berating over a not-stat-driven choice (like pursuing a relationship or witholding information from someone for dramatic purposes) tended to make players think the game was bad.

That's not the same exactly as the BioWare relationship situation, but it reminds me of it. The game has to keep assuring you that you're in control and agreeing to your whims and fancies and fantasies, even when modeling something complicated and chaotic and not-always-in-your-control like human relationships, or when running what is ostensibly a hopeless disempowering story simulator.

I don't know if there's anything to do about it, really. I think it just reveals what people really want out of these experiences.

--

Also sorry for using your personal experience with one BioWare encounter as a jumping off point for a general rant and thought. I don't mean any of it personally. I have the same experiences as you when playing these games. It just frustrates me because I don't think there is a solution, even though it often feels like a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just mean as somebody who is supposed to be a close friend to me and who has romantic feelings for me he should have at least acknowledged the fact that I wasn't single. That's not a nice thing to do amongst a close group of friends. It felt like the whole sequence was an afterthought. Somebody at bioware just thought "We should let the players know he's gay somehow". It didn't feel like natural character interaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just mean as somebody who is supposed to be a close friend to me and who has romantic feelings for me he should have at least acknowledged the fact that I wasn't single. That's not a nice thing to do amongst a close group of friends. It felt like the whole sequence was an afterthought. Somebody at bioware just thought "We should let the players know he's gay somehow". It didn't feel like natural character interaction.

Ah weak. Sounds like that could have been solved with a little extra optional dialogue interspersed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thoughts exactly. I love the way it gave him a kind of agency but it seems like they didn't fully consider how he should interact with the world beyond "he hits on Shepard". A better example is how Tali and Garrus can start a relationship if you aren't with either of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jake, on 31 Dec 2014 - 08:46, said:

It bums me out that most BioWare romancing stuff seems centered around the player always feeling like a godly puppet master in control of all sexing. I know the reason the games are like that is because if something unfavorable or out of the player's control DOES happen -- if there is uncontrolled deviation from the llayers godly plan for their character -- designers have a justified fear that the player will judge the NPC in question, and the game, and the developers incredibly harshly (as opposed to treating it like a random life event or judging themselves poorly or any other nuanced and considered reaction you might have in actual real life where you know you don't have ultimate control over the systems that govern you).

That's an interesting point. Maybe it says something about me, but I'm always the first to judge myself poorly, to the point where when Kaidan died in ME1, I spent an hour going through forums and such trying to figure out what I'd done wrong that doomed him, not realizing that it was a "save one or the other" sort of choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having just played through DA:O and DA2, I played them very differently.

 

In Origins, I actually ended up liking Morrigan way more than I thought I would as a character, so I went with her. But every step felt just super awkward and forced so I completely regret that I did that at all. The... end of the game didn't help much with that. Ugh.

 

In DA2, I just flirted with everyone at every opportunity provided and it was way better, but obviously not good if you actually want real romance. I ended up with no one, and I vastly preferred it that way to how the first game ended.

 

In Inquisition, well, who knows what I'll end up doing, but I imagine I'll take the DA2 route and not bother trying to creepily romance a specific person by pandering to their every whim even if I strongly disagree.

 

What I'm saying is: I agree; romancing in these games is massive butt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weirdly enough, the most effective romance thing I've ever seen in a Bioware game was in ME2 if you didn't pursue any romances but had pursued one in ME1. I played a FemShep and romanced Liara in ME1. But in 2, I just wasn't interested in messing with any of that.

Then, before the final mission, there was a cutscene of Shepard sitting alone in her cabin. She looked over, and there was a picture of Liara. She picked it up, looked at it sadly, then went to bed.

It just worked, and was believable, in a large part because it was out of my control in that game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weirdly enough, the most effective romance thing I've ever seen in a Bioware game was in ME2 if you didn't pursue any romances but had pursued one in ME1. I played a FemShep and romanced Liara in ME1. But in 2, I just wasn't interested in messing with any of that.

Then, before the final mission, there was a cutscene of Shepard sitting alone in her cabin. She looked over, and there was a picture of Liara. She picked it up, looked at it sadly, then went to bed.

It just worked, and was believable, in a large part because it was out of my control in that game.

Haha I did the same thing except there's the Shadow Broker DLC where you can meet with Liara anyway and oops there she is so time to sleep with her again (or did I make up that last bit, it's been a while, but I'm PRETTY sure you could - and you can also choose to just end it).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha, I didn't know that.  I've never played any of the DLC for the ME games.  Of course they put a sex scene for the most romanced character in 1 into the DLC for 2. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah "of course" is pretty much the only valid reaction, haha. I googled it to confirm and yeah there's definitely a scene for that.

 

(A lot of the DLC is actually really good, in my opinion!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always heard good things about the DLC, its just so rare for me to go back to any game anytime soon once I've finished it. I typically only play DLC if I've ended up buying some GOTY addition way after the original release, or if I'm replaying a game years after finishing it the first time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah certainly can't hold that against you. I'm the same way usually.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm actually working my way through ME2 again for the DLC right now, and my wife is playing ME3. I find myself still enjoying all the parts I enjoyed before, and not really caring about the stuff that bothered me before, so it's been a positive experience overall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the Walking Dead we basically had to tell players "you're right. You made the right choice. You did it correctly," or have a character in the group always say "I would have done the same as you if it was my choice," "there is nothing you could have done that was better than that," at every single decision junction, because unilateral berating over a not-stat-driven choice (like pursuing a relationship or witholding information from someone for dramatic purposes) tended to make players think the game was bad.

Hah, I actually liked that specifically because of how hollow it rang after the third or fourth person said it. It really seems like something they're primarily saying just to make you feel better, rather than actually believing it. Sure Kenny, fucking sure you would.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the Walking Dead we basically had to tell players "you're right. You made the right choice. You did it correctly," or have a character in the group always say "I would have done the same as you if it was my choice," "there is nothing you could have done that was better than that," at every single decision junction, because unilateral berating over a not-stat-driven choice (like pursuing a relationship or witholding information from someone for dramatic purposes) tended to make players think the game was bad.

That's not the same exactly as the BioWare relationship situation, but it reminds me of it. The game has to keep assuring you that you're in control and agreeing to your whims and fancies and fantasies, even when modeling something complicated and chaotic and not-always-in-your-control like human relationships, or when running what is ostensibly a hopeless disempowering story simulator.

 

 

This is really depressing, because one of my favourite story sequences in a game is the trial scene in Chrono Trigger, where the game takes a bunch of incidental actions you made in the opening hours and spins a narrative about how you're an amoral, out of control youth who clearly deliberately kidnapped the princess. I enjoyed how ruthlessly the game cut down my attempts to game the system - this chicken can be eaten and it gives me health, therefore I will eat it, even if the game says the chicken is someone else's. Finding the kitty is a sidequest and it is unlikely to give me a reward, so therefore I don't have to do it, even though in reality I probably would help a small child find her lost pet.

 

One of the things The Walking Dead did well was implying an inner life for its characters, mostly by saying 'Clementine will remember' your actions. It's a shame that it's very limited how much you can do on that front.

 

(I do kind of hope that trying to game the system can result in characters accusing you of manipulating them to get them to like the player.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am confident that this has been covered elsewhere (as you can imagine, it's tough to search for), but why does everyone pronounce GIF with the soft G?

 

EDIT:  before someone says, "because it's the correct way," I was hoping for something more substantial. Yes, yes, yes, I know it's how Steve Wilhite pronounces it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why does everyone pronounce GIF with the soft G?

 

Nononononononono just walk away slowly!

 

I actually made a joke last week that contained the word "gif" that I am 100% sure would not have been funny had I used one pronunciation over the other.  I will never convert!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just always said it the way I say it on idle thumbs. Growing up I had no idea it was contentious. Somewhere in the mid-late 90s in high school I got a job at a web developer and someone snidely made fun of me for pronouncing it like "gin" because he pronounced it like "gift." It had never crossed my mind there was another way.

Eventually I met people who called .wav files "wahhv files," like the "lav" in "lavalier," and who pronounced "warez" like "juarez," and who called MacOS X "oh ess ecks," so I just figured there were people out there who pronounced things totally incorrectly (and I was obviously not one of them since I said gif like "gin," the objectively indisputably right way).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just always said it the way I say it on idle thumbs … the objectively indisputably right way).

 

Has this ever been a topic of discussion on the show or the forums? Sounds like you guys are all on board the "jif" train. "Gin" is a good counter-argument to "gift."

 

EDIT: "wave,"  :tup:  "wheres," :tup: and "oh ess ecks." :tup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now