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Ben X

Job Hunting

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I think this is a common enough state to warrant its own thread. I'm going to start with a rant, but there's room for positive stuff, advice etc too!

 

I remember when to get a job you just had to post your CV in, come in for a ten minute chat and that was it. Now you have to register online, fill in all your details (address, education, job history, references) bit by bit into badly formatted boxes, write a massive long thing about why you're right for the job, write out different examples of when you showed innovation, dealt with a difficult customer etc, then attach your CV and cover letter anyway despite having just fed them piecemeal into a load of shitty text boxes, then go for an interview, do some fucking Krypton Factor challenges, then do an interview where you get to answer the same stupid example requests that you've already written a mini-essay about in your online application. Then a second interview where you talk about the same stuff but with another person in the room listening, then you get turned down because you talked about having regular catch-up meetings but you didn't use the phrase "one to one".
 
Other shit thing about job-hunting: everyone asking "how's the job-hunting going?" Well, I haven't got a job, so it's going poorly. It will continue to go poorly until I get a job, at which point it will be over. What do they expect the answer to be? "Oh, it's going really well! I haven't been offered any jobs yet but applying for them is so FUN!"

 

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So I only read like half the post, but how is the job-hunting going? 

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"Oh, it's going really well! I haven't been offered any jobs yet but applying for them is so FUN!"

 

Oops, just saw this. Glad to hear it:)

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The great thing is that everyone is slowly coming to the conclusion that resumes/CVs are not actually a particularly good method of hiring but no-one has any idea what they should do instead.

 

I'm sorry, I think I said 'great' when I meant 'worst'. Just ol' me using the wrong words in Ben's threads agin

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I hope the rising tide of recruiters will ebb soon. When i finished my undergrad, recruiters were amusing anecdotes that my business degree friends told me. Now they are all over the STEM field, and I really don't want much to do with them.

 

Honestly Ben, that whole rigmarole sounds like shite. People interviewing by keyword are a pox:/

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The great thing is that everyone is slowly coming to the conclusion that resumes/CVs are not actually a particularly good method of hiring but no-one has any idea what they should do instead.

 

I'm sorry, I think I said 'great' when I meant 'worst'. Just ol' me using the wrong words in Ben's threads agin

 

Don't make me start a new thread!

 

But yeah, it feels like there are a lot more people applying for jobs these days and so employers are having to come up with more and more pointless, arbitrary hoops to make people jump through.

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I remember when to get a job you just had to post your CV in, come in for a ten minute chat and that was it. Now you have to register online, fill in all your details

 

I loathe this aspect of job hunting. The worst part is that it's all in the bloody CV, which you then have to attach anyway. It entirely subverts the point of the CV - you only have to make one (with obvious minor changes) and it's sent to everyone. 

 

I need to start finding another job soon (read in 6 months time), and I'm really not looking forward to it. My current job had an incredibly informal application - I sent my CV, a cover letter, then had an interview. I was informed I got the job, but that I now had to fill out all the online bullshit to make it official. It's great having a boss who cares less for the online crap than you do.

 

Edit: Can this also be the Cronyism thread?

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I loathe CVs. My skills are not at all helpful to self promotion but I would be a damn good worker if I could prove it for just a day. I also really hate the job seeking advice people give because it always feels like they think you will either treat it as a full time job or you're only applying to a select number or jobs... Neither of which is ever true for me at least. Just admit that it's a shit situation and a poorly formed admission process that we have to put up with. Don't pretend that it's a fine system and just requires adapting to.

I'll probably just try and do freelance/contract work, occasionally applying to particularly suitable jobs to be honest. It's far less secure but would retain more sanity.

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In the academic world, it's worse! I have to include a cover letter, a CV, a succinct essay about my research accomplishments and future goals, and then I have to goad three people into writing letters of recommendation for me. On top of that, for fellowships, you have to write an entire different essay outlining a research project that you would do if given the fellowship. For academic teaching positions, you'll also have to write a teaching statement. 

 

Each job gets around 200ish applicants, and while half of them are crap, the other 100 are pretty strong, and in the end, it's a wonder anyone gets any job at all.

 

I'm on the job market now, and January and February are just going to suck as I get a tidal wave of rejections. And because postdocs are much cheaper than professorships, I'll probably have to repeat this whole song and dance in two to three more years. 

 

It's the worst! Why am I still in academia! 

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Oh yeah, the references. Two fricking references, and these days it's common that they insist one of them is your most recent employer. What if your most recent employer was a dick?!

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In the academic world, it's worse! I have to include a cover letter, a CV, a succinct essay about my research accomplishments and future goals, and then I have to goad three people into writing letters of recommendation for me. On top of that, for fellowships, you have to write an entire different essay outlining a research project that you would do if given the fellowship. For academic teaching positions, you'll also have to write a teaching statement. 

 

Each job gets around 200ish applicants, and while half of them are crap, the other 100 are pretty strong, and in the end, it's a wonder anyone gets any job at all.

 

I'm on the job market now, and January and February are just going to suck as I get a tidal wave of rejections. And because postdocs are much cheaper than professorships, I'll probably have to repeat this whole song and dance in two to three more years. 

 

It's the worst! Why am I still in academia! 

I'm almost done with my masters, and I was going to say all this job hunting sounds like too much of a nightmare so I'll just go for a PHD instead and now you're telling me it's worse! I guess I can get a second degree and put off becoming an adult a bit longer.

 

The thing I hate about CVs is trying to make myself sound better than I am. I can't do it, but everyone does it so you have to.

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I'm almost done with my masters, and I was going to say all this job hunting sounds like too much of a nightmare so I'll just go for a PHD instead and now you're telling me it's worse! I guess I can get a second degree and put off becoming an adult a bit longer.

 

The thing I hate about CVs is trying to make myself sound better than I am. I can't do it, but everyone does it so you have to.

 

Oh just get a job in industry, it is much nicer:P I thought for ever that i wanted to be a lecturer, but after being forced into industry, i actually found that i liked it way more than academia.

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Currently searching for a new job so I have a few things to add here.  Agree with having your latest employer be a reference is understandable but commonly strange.  My current employer doesn't know I'm searching and while I'd likely get a glowing referral I'd rather not deal with the consequences of not getting that new job and having my boss know I'm looking to get out.

 

For the most part my experience with applications has been largely poor fill out text fields and still attach your CV but I had to go through roughly 3 hours of personality/knowledge tests in one of my last applications.  There were literally grammar, vocabulary, and math portions to not be taken with a calculator.  It felt like I was taking the SAT's again.  I've taken personality quizzes before for applications but never anything that extensive and exhausting.  Got an interview with the CEO but didn't wind up with the job, part of me is alright with that considering how odd I feel the whole process was.

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Edit: I've known of game studios with HR departments that watched their employees linkedin profiles like hawks. Even a small edit would be cause for a "chat".

 

What if your most recent employer was a dick?!

 

I've actually been in that position and it fucking sucked. My former boss needing a punchbag at that job almost ruined a career path for me; luckily enough people outside the company knew what kind of person he was.

 

I've probably got more than 80% of the jobs I've had through talking to people than by going through normal applications or interviews. I loathe job hunting and you all have my deepest sympathy.

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I'm almost done with my masters, and I was going to say all this job hunting sounds like too much of a nightmare so I'll just go for a PHD instead and now you're telling me it's worse! I guess I can get a second degree and put off becoming an adult a bit longer.

 

The thing I hate about CVs is trying to make myself sound better than I am. I can't do it, but everyone does it so you have to.

 

Growing up I thought that getting my PhD would make me feel like a cool accomplished person but it mostly makes me realize that 1) the world is terrifying, 2) I am unprepared for actual human labor, 3) nobody is actually going to call me doctor anyway, except people, sometimes, sarcastically. The job market doesn't get better, since it's ostensibly a meritocracy, but it's actually/definitely not. 

 

Before you decide to go onto the PhD, think about why you want a PhD. I can't do anything in my field without one, but if I ever leave the field (and believe me, that may be coming sooner rather than labor) it won't be worth a huge amount. It's a cool sheet of paper, though. 

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Whats your Phd in? Mine holds some weight, but that may be because i'm in a startup and "we have two phds working here" is seen as a bragging point. That said, in my last place both the owner and his 2nd in command had phds and mine was still bandied out as "the maths guy with the phd" in front of visitors.

 

And my mum calls me Dr., so there.

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Just got three rejection notices within the span of a week! Excited because I moved from getting no notices at all!

 

And yes, it's an extremely tiresome process. So tiresome that I'm not even sure I want to write anymore about it here other than to say mt sympathy is going out to my fellow job-seekers.

 

Edit: Mt. Sympathy. A mountain of sympathy. Was that a typo? I'll never tell.

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My wife actually got several interviews over the last couple of months and her job that she started this week through a recruiter. It can be a pain sometimes, but sometimes you can get around fighting with the stupid forms and also have the added benefit of another person looking for jobs that you might be qualified for.

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nobody is actually going to call me doctor anyway

 

Some will, but at least they won't go "Are you… doctor Qube?" just because you're a woman, then seem reassured when they ask you if you're a medical doctor and you reply no. Which happens to at least one friend of mine with a PhD.

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Whats your Phd in? Mine holds some weight, but that may be because i'm in a startup and "we have two phds working here" is seen as a bragging point. That said, in my last place both the owner and his 2nd in command had phds and mine was still bandied out as "the maths guy with the phd" in front of visitors.

 

And my mum calls me Dr., so there.

 

I'm an astronomer. My brother has a DVM, and so my parents only use my PhD as a way of bragging out their kids, but otherwise, if I ever push on a door marked pull, they are very, very quick to bring it up. "You have a PhD? Dr. Kevin?"

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The reason I went for mine was because there is an indestructible glass ceiling in my field without a PhD. The problem was, moving from industry into academia made me fall in love with the freedom and now I don't want to leave. My PhD is in Medicine, but I am not a medic, which causes a lot of confusion.

It is terrifying never having a contract for more than 3 years, but I wouldn't give it up to work in the soul crossing world of big pharma. YMMV. If you do a PhD for a job, it's the wrong decision. If you love the field and don't mind being over qualified for everything except academia, then it's great.

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Man, I definitely hate the online forms the worst. They always end up taking like almost an hour to fill out and they are almost always terribly coded. The worst is when there's some kind of error due to shit scripting and you have to either forget the job or just start over. The worst of the worst is when you lose a bunch of info because uploading a pdf or doc resume somehow means you have to clear all of the shit you just fucking typed. Ridiculous. People should ALWAYS just give you those PDFs with the boxes you fill out and then resubmit the saved PDFs and fucking forget the amateur HTML of whatever dipshit they hired to make their website.

My wife actually got several interviews over the last couple of months and her job that she started this week through a recruiter. It can be a pain sometimes, but sometimes you can get around fighting with the stupid forms and also have the added benefit of another person looking for jobs that you might be qualified for.

Yeah I agree. The best luck I've had is with recruiters who skip all of that bullshit for you. Even one that went silent with me for six months came with some good freelance work that I still am able to do intermittently to this day. They may not be the best at finding work depending on what it is, but in my experience when they come through, they really come through. They get paid by selling you after all. Plus I've even had a couple of these recruiting agencies do the payments for me with direct deposit so no reliance on the company you might be doing work for. So they even get that bullshit of payment hassle set up for you.

 

My sister uses a recruiter every time she switches jobs, which she tends to do a lot. Each time they end up finding her better salary, but the downside is she doesn't get paid by the company she was hired at for six months and instead the recruiter does it until then. So it's kind of like you are still the agencies for a while. It's probably not really a problem though.

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I'm kind of happy I got my PhD just because I would never have expected me to be able to get one, so it's sort of a proof to me that yes I can do things. That does help with thinking about/getting jobs in an abstract way at least.

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