Jake

Idle Thumbs 185: Beppo's Hole

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I haven't finished listening yet but I'm a little disappointed this wasn't entitled Breckon's Dreams to go along with Cooper's Dreams on TPR

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As always, there is a great discussion here, but I really wonder why so many people who listen to Idle Thumbs were unaware of who Taylor Swift was. I think that, even if you don't like her music (and I'm actually way, way into 1989), it's good to just know who she is, consider her importance in the current cultural landscape. Some amount of cultural literacy is completely fine, everyone. I have zero interest in watching a TV show like Duck Dynasty, but the way it pervades the culture has made me learn a little about it so that I can understand it's impact. (Gah, I wish that I could write this with the genial tone with which it was meant)

 

Also, I immediately looked up what the official translation of "Buca di Beppo" is, according to the company. It's apparently a slang term for "Joe's Basement?" Beppo's Hole is far, far more appealing. 

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I was kinda aware of Taylor Swift based on a roommate playing the Shake it Off song a lot, but I had only then discovered that she is an adult roughly my age, not a teenager/child.

 

I don't entirely get why you think it's important though. I don't have her intersect my sphere of existence very much, apart from a couple friends who listen to her. And then of course the general impact she has on general culture, but is it necessary to learn about her and all the other things that generally impact on culture at large? And if so, what constitutes something important enough for me to know about it?

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It's pretty easy to entirely miss mainstream musical acts if you 1) don't listen to the radio, and 2) don't watch TV (at least, live with ads). I think the only reason I was vaguely aware of Taylor Swift's existence was that Papa John's Pizza had some sort of promotional deal with her album Red. If that was her. I might be getting confused.

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The only reason I know about Taylor Swift is because someone linked a video either on these forums or in IRC. I don't remember which. Anyway it was a fun poppy song. Not sure she's deserving of all this vitriol. Then again, I don't think she's all that important, either, unless you like her music.

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There's an article by Zohra Atash that someone I follow on twitter linked to that I think is super relevant to the discussion happening here. She discusses the impact her identity as a woman and as someone of Afghani heritage has on trying to operate as a musician. She even mentions Taylor Swift towards the end.

 

http://thetalkhouse.com/music/talks/zohra-atash-talks/

 

The three main quick takeaways:

 

1. We need to be really careful when talking about women making music that we aren't using language and concepts that carry a lot of sexist cultural baggage. Because sexism is so ingrained in our culture its really easy to do these things inadvertantly.

 

2. We also need to be really careful about double standards we might be displaying.

 

3. We should be suspicious about claims about authenticity, particularly if someone making the claim is an outsider to the culture in question.

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As always, there is a great discussion here, but I really wonder why so many people who listen to Idle Thumbs were unaware of who Taylor Swift was. I think that, even if you don't like her music (and I'm actually way, way into 1989), it's good to just know who she is, consider her importance in the current cultural landscape. Some amount of cultural literacy is completely fine, everyone. I have zero interest in watching a TV show like Duck Dynasty, but the way it pervades the culture has made me learn a little about it so that I can understand it's impact. (Gah, I wish that I could write this with the genial tone with which it was meant)

 

I dunno, I think choosing to opt out of all that is also fine. I only have so much time in my life, I'd rather dedicate it to culture I care about. And if that means I'm out of touch, which I surely am, well that's a choice I've made.

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Taylor Swift, like most pop music, gets regular play everywhere you go whether it's the grocery store, doctor or dentist's office, a bar, a drug store, etc. It's safe and does not have a polarizing message so it is well marketed towards white Christian America who eats this stuff up no matter where they go. It find it really hard not to get exposed to this stuff when I factor in what people post on Facebook and Youtube and Hulu ads. Do you guys tend to avoid a lot of places with muzak or satellite radio? Also a lot of this forum is international, I can't see Taylor Swift having much appeal outside of the United States.

 

I did start taking head phones while grocery shopping though. I feel so much happier that way.

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Just because someone's music might appear in the background somewhere you happen to be doesn't mean you'd be able to identify that music or who's performing it.

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As always, there is a great discussion here, but I really wonder why so many people who listen to Idle Thumbs were unaware of who Taylor Swift was. I think that, even if you don't like her music (and I'm actually way, way into 1989), it's good to just know who she is, consider her importance in the current cultural landscape. Some amount of cultural literacy is completely fine, everyone. I have zero interest in watching a TV show like Duck Dynasty, but the way it pervades the culture has made me learn a little about it so that I can understand it's impact. (Gah, I wish that I could write this with the genial tone with which it was meant)

 

Also, I immediately looked up what the official translation of "Buca di Beppo" is, according to the company. It's apparently a slang term for "Joe's Basement?" Beppo's Hole is far, far more appealing. 

 

I confused her with Miley Cyrus because I'm an idiot, but I do actually know who she is.

 

 

I'm willing to bet quite a lot of bucks that there are things or people I'd consider obvious and mainstream that you're not familiar with. As always, even popular culture isn't as popular as it used to be.

 

 

e: It wasn't meant as a takedown of you. She's a lady that makes music I don't care for or about. Popular culture is increasingly fragmented and even "important" things matter less and less to fewer people.

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Wait, what

 

Taylor Swift is the first female performer to top herself on the number one charts. She's a Big Deal, across a huge demographic. I can understand not knowing every song that comes on the radio when you're sitting around, but I don't understand a human being who isn't at least aware of the most important pop culture personalities. Again, I find a lot of what people watch or care about to be uninteresting to me, personally, but I can at least identify it. I don't know how that hurts me at all. It's not like my brain can get "full." I don't listen to the radio or watch TV either, but I am a human being who seeks out information. 

 

Edit: You know, it's not worth having this conversation, since it's opinion vs. opinion. If you don't know who Taylor Swift is, that's fine. If it's not important to you, it's not important to you. Sorry if I offended anyone. 

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I find it useful to have passing familiarity with sport because it doesn't actually cost me very much and in return I'm prepared when dealing with normal people to at least have something they like that I understand. I figure, with a large enough group of fans, there must be something there that I can find worthy of interest, even if it's "what is wrong with people who like this obvious tripe".

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Didn't know that Top 100 list fact, I was genuinely surprised that she's the first female act, and who the other acts who followed themselves up are. It was really cool to see Puff Daddy's memorial song for Biggie was followed up by Mo Money Mo Problems. (Also woo! Boyz II Men :D)

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Aghh, hrmmm. Ok I'm going to post a response in spoiler tags so you can ignore it if you want.

I'm just gonna say I'm not offended, sorry if it sounded like I was. I just think it is something worth talking about cause I find it interesting.

 

I didn't release until just now she was even that big. I genuinely knew so little about her, just that she was another pop star and her music is popular. I don't watch stuff on TV or listen to the radio, when I go out to shops and stuff I listen to podcasts. When I'm out with friends in places, overwhelmingly it's music I don't know because most places play genres I'm not very into so I don't give it a second thought when stuff I'm unfamiliar with crops up.

 

I am in two minds about it. Probably I could do with being more aware of the world, but I think pop culture is one of the least important aspects of that, compared to news or social issues that I also don't seek out enough. And also, I just didn't know she WAS a big deal that so many people would know. I could have decided I wanted to find out who was the number one pop star but failing that I wouldn't have known it was Taylor Swift that I should have read up on.

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It comes down to priorities.

If I want to learn about a cultural touchstone in music right now I'd sooner look at FKA Twigs, Death Grips, or Lorde. If I'm going to look at musical influence I'd rather look at musicians whose music I at least appreciate. As for looking at things that are culturally important or being part of a conversation I think it's a weak argument to make when there are already so many niches and meaningful discussions to be had (that are also culturally important) without digressing to factoids on subjects that don't interest me or only interest me in a meta-narrative sense.

 

I mean even at 21 I don't really consider Taylor Swift as having much relevance to whatever demographic I fall into. With that lack of demographic relationship I'll make some other arguments. For example I don't need to look into Tinder or Grindr despite their cultural relevance because I'm not single; I don't need to look into Vines because I'm not a teenager; I don't need to know things about Pewdiepie or TotalBiscuit because they don't interest me; I don't need to know about what shows toddlers watch because I'm not a parent or toddler. Honestly regarding Taylor Swift I consider my line of thought as no different from these examples.

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Well if you ever have a daughter and she likes Taylor Swift, instead buy her a Bikini Kill CD.

 

Or... iTunes gift card, sorry, I always forget it's the future.

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Happy to hear talk about Game of the Year 420 Blaze It and r/MontageParodies. Since there sounded like there was some confusion as to the context of those things, I think I can explain it a little.

 

To start, you can understand the type of content that is being parodied. Here is a completely not ironic montage of Call of Duty:

I've never understood the 360 noscope thing. It seems like a stand in for thing that are actually impressive.

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I was aware that Taylor Swift is a current pop star. That's pretty much it.

 

I don't go on Facebook or Twitter that often, and when I do I don't have friends or followees who post Taylor Swift related things. I don't listen to music much in general. I get my pop culture knowledge from io9, avclub and here, pretty much. I don't click on articles about Taylor Swift on those first two sites (although I don't recall there being that many of them) because I'm unlikely to find news about the current pop star interesting. Meanwhile, outside of this thread, Swift has been mentioned on these forums a total of five times ever, and even then only in passing with no information to be gleaned other than 'she is a current pop star" - it seems no one found her interesting enough to post about.

 

Instead of being shocked that some people aren't aware of some stuff, it would be more useful to describe why it's worth knowing about her impact on pop culture. Is it because she's a 'nice girl'? Is she any different to other current young female pop stars or even, say, Kylie Minogue in the 80s on that front? I'm aware of Duck Dynasty only because of the issues surrounding it of redneck-sneering television and the choices of the network after the family patriarch turned out to be racist; if there's a similar issues-led discussion of Swift going on, I haven't heard any of until this thread and 'cast.

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I guess now isn't the best time to admit to never having interacted with Pokemon on any level (video games, card games, tv shows) despite being in the demographic and ample opportunities to have done so. Also never had a gameboy since it seems like that was what the Pokemon game was originally released on?

Anyway sorry for going all 'meta-first-world-problems'. At least I know that Taylor Swift, uhh... exists.

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There's an article by Zohra Atash that someone I follow on twitter linked to that I think is super relevant to the discussion happening here. She discusses the impact her identity as a woman and as someone of Afghani heritage has on trying to operate as a musician. She even mentions Taylor Swift towards the end.

 

http://thetalkhouse.com/music/talks/zohra-atash-talks/

 

The three main quick takeaways:

 

1. We need to be really careful when talking about women making music that we aren't using language and concepts that carry a lot of sexist cultural baggage. Because sexism is so ingrained in our culture its really easy to do these things inadvertantly.

 

2. We also need to be really careful about double standards we might be displaying.

 

3. We should be suspicious about claims about authenticity, particularly if someone making the claim is an outsider to the culture in question.

 

Thanks for sharing that, she's in part addressing some of what I was trying to say earlier but in a more eloquent and informed way. 

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Ben, I don't need to come up with reasons why a person should seek to minimize ignorance. Taylor Swift is just another in a long line of popular music artists, and you don't have to listen to her if you don't want. Video games are the same way. Films are the same way. Books are the same way. Art is the same way. I don't need to have a reason to seek information. It's not even seeking "news," which is not in an of itself what I'm talking about. You can understand who Taylor Swift is, and why she, or any artist, might matter without having to read gossip. Look at some of these articles! Look at how weird it is to be a popular singer in the modern age!  Look at how important this person is! Even if she's another iteration on a theme. Maybe you've just already made up your mind. 

 

I have a question, though, trying to switch topics from Me Having a Strong Opinion and Most Likely Putting Myself on Everyone's Block Lists. 

 

The Monument Valley discussion was really fascinating, but it was missing a crucial piece of information. Just how prevalent was this animosity to the DLC price? Like, I agree it was A Thing, and I saw the various news pieces about it, but how really do you think that this might impact the sales of the game? Right now, Monument Valley still shows spectacular reviews on the app store. Did this all blow over? It's very hard, in the era of the internet, to tell how meaningful an issue is. 

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I find a ton of what's been said her super interesting. I think a lot of this circles back on what Sean was talking about a couple weeks ago about feeling like being isolated from the marketing machine in a way that keeps things that may (or may not) be interesting to you off your radar.

 

I know that I like to keep up with popular culture, because I spend a great deal of time on twitter, and if I want the context necessary to do so, I need to at least be willing to know what the conversations I'm seeing are referencing, but I can see why it may be energy not worth spending to others.

 

I was talking about the whole Taylor Swift maturation process with my SO yesterday, and he was saying that he was surprised by everyone else's surprise of her image continuing down the wholesome good girl path into her adulthood.  He isn't a country music fan, but growing up in Oklahoma forces you to be familiar with it. This is the same thing that Nashville country does to all of their pretty white teen girls & women, so for Taylor Swift to be a product of that environment meant it seemed natural to him that she would continue using that image going forward. And when I thought about it for a second, every solo female Nashville country singer I could think of was cast as the same wholesome woman no matter their age.  I don't watch the CMAs or listen to country radio, but the image I have of Faith Hill is largely identical to what I would have had of Taylor when she was 14 and in a more "pure" country stage of her career, which is largely identical to what I think about Carrie Underwood.  She may have made the (symbolic & physical) move to New York, but I doubt she shed her Nashville connections in terms of her publicist(s) & her straight up savvy of know what kind of person she wants to be seen as.  You only have so much control as a famous person over what people say about you, but it would make sense for her to see other country acts grow up using this tactic, and be inclined to also do so.

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Look at some of these articles! Look at how weird it is to be a popular singer in the modern age!  Look at how important this person is! Even if she's another iteration on a theme. Maybe you've just already made up your mind. 

 

Excellent, thank you. That's what I was asking for. (I don't know what it is you think I may have made my mind up about.)

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I just had a chance to poke at This War of Mine. On my first scavaging outing I didn't realize it would bring up a screen of "here's your stuff you can take with you," I thought I was looting already. So I filled the bag, then it put me on the place I was at and I sighed, having wasted the whole night 'cause I can't carry anymore. That sucked.

 

I have a feeling this game is going to stress me out in the same fashion Cart Life did. The more human things are, the more anxious I get about playing and eventually failing.

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