Idle Thumbs 185: Beppo's Hole

[Jake]

Idle Thumbs 185:

Beppo's Hole

Beppo's Hole is not a place one wants to spend very much time (it's kind of a rollicking mess) but here we all are so let's make the best of it. In Beppo's Hole, Danielle catches the scent of Far Cry 4 but can't stay and truly enjoy it until later. In Beppo's Hole, Chris serves himself up the sensory envelopment that is the Monument Valley expansion, despite other patrons' incensed exasperation that such a thing exists. In Beppo's Hole, Sean raided the larder with his three starving friends, and yes they came out fed, but far sadder for it. Jake and Nick just came to Beppo's Hole for the view.

Games Discussed: Far Cry 4, Assassin's Creed Unity, Pokemon Alpha Sapphire, This War of Mine, Zafehouse Diaries, Monument Valley: Forgotten Shores, GAME OF THE YEAR: 420BLAZEIT vs. xxXilluminatiXxx [wow/10 #rekt edition] Montage Parody The Game, Super Mario Advance

Also Discussed: Interstellar, Taylor Swift, American Airlines, Italian Dinners

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[Merus]

Here is a character from Far Cry 4, incidentally.

 

The profile has been edited by dipsticks, go through to the official website to read more about this character in Far Cry 4 who is very definitely distinct from anyone who was previously a guest on Idle Thumbs

[Gormongous]

I was worried that Interstellar would pass by the podcast without comment, even just a little bit, but of course not, because SPACE.

[mikemariano]

I have an immediately negative reaction when hearing the Boston (and surrounding area) accent, too; sorry Danielle!  I typically only hear it used to employ breathtakingly horrible racism against black baseball players.

 

You've made a valiant effort to change that!  I wonder if it will catch on and it becomes a Twitch accent—other livestreamers will feel they need to read in-game text in an RI accent? 

[Marilink]

Be careful, Danielle--Pokemon is a wonderful, but incredibly deep rabbit hole.

 

...I would know, I've been at the bottom of it for 15 years.

[tegan]

Games Discussed: [...] Pokemon Alpha Sapphire

 

[Bolegium]

Podded a great cast!

[tberton]

 

Just a warning, teg: the Thumbs have never sounded so old as they do when talking about Pokemon. It's pretty funny.

[osmosisch]

That reminds me, teg please teall me you were the one who wrote the many pages of pokemon info to Isometric recently haha

[Justin Leego]

naturebox.diaps/thumbs

[tegan]

That reminds me, teg please teall me you were the one who wrote the many pages of pokemon info to Isometric recently haha

 

Nope, sorry.

 

 

So regarding Jake's questions about how you can do a Pokémon remake: each set of games is set in a different region with its own Team Rocket equivalent, NPCs, music, regional Pokémon, and potential gameplay features that might be dropped in later generations. The original Ruby and Sapphire were set in a balmy, volcanic coastal region and had a few elements that were eventually dropped from later games, like the beauty pageant-esque "Pokémon Contests" or the greater importance of the Bicycle. Everything is coming back for these remakes.

 

Also, Pokémon East Virginia/West Virginia (or whatever) could totally be a thing. The regions are always based on real-world locations even though they never spell it out. The one Danielle's playing is based on Kyushu. Other games have been based on Kanto, Kansai, Hokkaido, New York, and northern France.

[Jake]

Be careful, Danielle--Pokemon is a wonderful, but incredibly deep rabbit hole.

 

...I would know, I've been at the bottom of it for 15 years.

you mean a Beppo's Hole.

Just a warning, teg: the Thumbs have never sounded so old as they do when talking about Pokemon. It's pretty funny.

It's true. Pokemon is one of the things in gaming that I have always felt too old for, since when it came out. It was actually the first thing in video games as a medium that made me think "whoa I might outgrow this, or parts of it," which was mind blowing to a 17 year old who loved video games.

Nope, sorry.

 

 

So regarding Jake's questions about how you can do a Pokémon remake: each set of games is set in a different region with its own Team Rocket equivalent, NPCs, music, regional Pokémon, and potential gameplay features that might be dropped in later generations. The original Ruby and Sapphire were set in a balmy, volcanic coastal region and had a few elements that were eventually dropped from later games, like the beauty pageant-esque "Pokémon Contests" or the greater importance of the Bicycle. Everything is coming back for these remakes.

 

Also, Pokémon East Virginia/West Virginia (or whatever) could totally be a thing. The regions are always based on real-world locations even though they never spell it out. The one Danielle's playing is based on Kyushu. Other games have been based on Kanto, Kansai, Hokkaido, New York, and northern France.

I feel very educated now! The 3DS and Wii U era Pokemon stuff looks visually appealing enough that I've considered playinone of them a few times...

I doubt I will do it but if I was to play a Pokemon game, as an owner of a 3DS and Wii U, where should I start? (I also own a working TV and handheld console from every Nintendo going back to the NES but I don't really want to go hunting down cartridges, so it has to be something downloadable on Wii U or 3DS shop I'm sorry to say.)

[Twig]

Well the Wii U doesn't have a proper Pokémon game, so you're pretty much stuck with whatever the 3DS has on offer. Which can either be X/Y or the Ruby/Sapphire remakes. As for which of those to get, well... I'm not sure why I'm making this post because tegan will be so much better at answering this question than I am. X/Y is fun enough, but Ruby/Sapphire might be better. I don't know.

[mikemariano]

I played a store display of one of the Pokemon games and was horrified by the walk speed.  The movement was as janky as Dragon Warrior.

 

And from what I can tell they haven't improved it!  Is this true?

[dium]

I'm always pleasantly surprised when somebody new to Pokemon tries it and likes it. Pokemon has a unique place in the set of things that I like, in that I can't (to any satisfying degree) explain why I like it as much as I do. 

 

It's a game of rock-paper-scissors made complicated in dozens of different ways, many of which are obfuscated or even invisible, but which ultimately are irrelevant to 90% of players since the main campaign is designed to be beatable by small children.

 

The story and writing in these games, where existent, is "simplistic" if you're being charitable ("brain dead" if you aren't). It's set in a world where kids are obligated to make their pet animals fight each other the moment eye contact is made, no exceptions, but some time is allowed before the battle to make small talk about (among other things) the practicality of wardrobe choices or why *insert character-defining hobby* is the best and most interesting character-defining hobby. 

 

But I always, ALWAYS have fun with Pokemon games. I can't explain why, since anything I ever say about them comes out sounding like a criticism. X/Y is what got me to buy a 3DS; I burned through that game like a fiend and I have no regrets.

[tegan]

I doubt I will do it but if I was to play a Pokemon game, as an owner of a 3DS and Wii U, where should I start? (I also own a working TV and handheld console from every Nintendo going back to the NES but I don't really want to go hunting down cartridges, so it has to be something downloadable on Wii U or 3DS shop I'm sorry to say.)

 

Short answer: skip all the old games and go straight to Pokémon Omega Ruby when it comes out on Friday (it's one of the few games Nintendo allows you to download at midnight, even). My personal favourite in the series is Black 2, but the servers for all the DS-era games have been shut down and I'm fairly confident that the new games are going to be a more complete experience than X/Y, the most recent games. Turn the text speed up to maximum, turn the 3D off because it's terrible, and get ready to deal with a somewhat dated and clunky UI. Consult Bulbapedia when you think you need help (like if you're not sure what a certain ability does or why one of your Pokémon isn't evolving), battle and trade with Danielle at your convenience. If you're having trouble with a particular area or boss, swap some of your Pokémon out or give them new attacks and items instead of just grinding. Keep this type matchup chart handy until you internalize it:

 

 

 

 

Long answer:

 

So Pokémon is a weird game, because it's really more like two games: there is the friendly, approachable veneer of "you're a kid in a fun world full of cool monsters" that the games sell themselves on; and then there is the crazy hardcore underbelly of competitive Pokémon that the games gently hint about and nudge you toward without ever actually spelling it out for you. Competitive Pokémon requires a lot more dedication, but is a more satisfying experience with the potential for much more dramatic styles of play. I'd say that the best way to approach it from a newcomer's perspective would be watching replays of matches on Pokémon Showdown, a popular battle simulator that's easy to set up and gives a bit more visual information about what's going on than the games do, and reading articles on Smogon (like these slightly dated but still fairly comprehensive articles from the previous generation of games). I also recommend viewing

-in which Korean player Se Jun Park used a team built around a weak, obscure Pokémon to take the title- to see how a clever strategy and being able to get into your opponent's head will take you further than just picking the strongest attacks.

 

I do a lot of Pokémon breeding and have a complete Pokédex and a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the game's mechanics, so PM me if you're interested in learning more about high-level play, or if you just want me to breed you a Pokémon to add to your Pokédex or team.

[Badfinger]

Cast in progress - thoughts grab bag

 

Sean: this comment you made nagged at me, and I would be interested for you to expound on it. Discussing Pagan Min (FC4 antagonist), you said it didn't matter that he was Asian because he was a made up person. That immediately made me wonder why then such a big deal's made out of all the white man video game characters, because they're just made up people. Obviously there's a very, very good reason people make a big deal out of all the white dudes in video games, so I was surprised to hear you say that in such a cavalier way. He's the ruler/king of this faux Himalayan country that has ties to the region. Of course it matters that he's Asian. Am I taking this completely out of context?

 

Assassin's Creed: Rogue looks good! It looks very much like it's continuing from the foundation that Black Flag built on, what with the boats and the British Isles protagonist and the working for Abstergo outside the Animus. It came out the exact same day as Unity to 0% fanfare and it looks (to me, a very big AC fan) like precisely what I want.

 

AC: Unity absolutely has child models. Its early tutorial sequence has you as the child version of the main character doing things. The models look fine when they are applied properly. Confirmed bug (wontfix).

 

I am probably almost precisely the Thumbs host member median age, and I've never Pokemon'd. I was a teenager when it first came out, and by the time I heard of it it seemed like a game that was aimed at a far younger audience than me. I had no interest whatsoever. It's interesting that there was a HS following at that time, because I definitely didn't perceive one. As a certified Old Person, I now assume that things 10 year olds like 13 year olds also like because obviously they're the same age, but there's such a stratification when you're younger.

 

 

 

 

WHAT THE FUCK IS BUCA DI BEPPO?

[SecretAsianMan]

I do a lot of Pokémon breeding and have a complete Pokédex and a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the game's mechanics, so PM me if you're interested in learning more about high-level play, or if you just want me to breed you a Pokémon to add to your Pokédex or team.

 

Alternatively you can be like me and ask Teg a thousand dumb questions on Steam even though I don't play Pokémon.  I find almost everything about Pokémon interesting except the part where I play it.

[Twig]

Buca di Beppo is an Italian restaurant. I usually go there at least once during GDC week! Not because it's like great or anything but it's easy for big groups.

[Reyturner]

RE: Someone non-ironically loving that unlimited Olive Garden deal. 
 

“I have not had one meal that was not just perfect”

 

Someone will be well served by unlimited Interstellar.

[Badfinger]

Buca di Beppo is an Italian restaurant. I usually go there at least once during GDC week! Not because it's like great or anything but it's easy for big groups.

 

I mean, I actually do know what it is (plus context clues). It seems like sort of a step in between Olive Garden and Bertucci's/Macaroni Grill. I just didn't know it was such a part of the Idle Thumbs zeitgeist.

[Argobot]

I strongly disagree with the idea that Taylor Swift doesn't sell sex. Her earlier music (which, I'll admit, I am only passingly familiar with) sells this ridiculous image of a saintly, pure young woman. Even with this more blatantly pop album, Swift is still positioned as the anti-Katy Perry, or the anti-Brittany, or the anti-Miley, because she maintains that virginal, girl next door quality. It's still sex, the Madonna side of the whore/Madonna duality, and it still sends unreasonable messages to young women about how they should relate to their sexuality. The new album is frustrating because she is clearly talking about sex, but it's cloaked in gauzy metaphor that feels calculated to allow her to hold onto the Madonna image, while providing a very measured, clinical titillation. 

[Blambo]

Sean: this comment you made nagged at me, and I would be interested for you to expound on it. Discussing Pagan Min (FC4 antagonist), you said it didn't matter that he was Asian because he was a made up person. That immediately made me wonder why then such a big deal's made out of all the white man video game characters, because they're just made up people. Obviously there's a very, very good reason people make a big deal out of all the white dudes in video games, so I was surprised to hear you say that in such a cavalier way. He's the ruler/king of this faux Himalayan country that has ties to the region. Of course it matters that he's Asian. Am I taking this completely out of context?

I feel like his point was that the ethnic context could simply be something you tack on to cheaply add context to a story, and never actually let it mesh thematically in the way that you describe. If he were a real person then his ethnicity alone carries weight, but because he's fictional and strained through the perspectives of probably white people, there's no guarantee.

[Badfinger]

I feel like his point was that the ethnic context could simply be something you tack on to cheaply add context to a story, and never actually let it mesh thematically in the way that you describe. If he were a real person then his ethnicity alone carries weight, but because he's fictional and strained through the perspectives of probably white people, there's no guarantee.

 

I think maybe perception of the game and the character suffered a bunch from the reveal where everyone saw the character and thought it was a white dude, and there's this feeling that he was changed to be Asian instead of actually developed as an Asian character all along? Also I'm dipping my toe into uncharted waters here, but why is it taken that the character is "strained through perspectives" and why probably white people (if you're not just going on the assumption that most game developers outside of Asia are white people, like I would be)? To phrase it differently, does it matter for this character but not for others in the game, or would it if they were well characterized?

 

I have played the game as much as Sean, which is to say none at all to this point, but in reading reviews I haven't seen anything that make me think the characterization is objectionable in ways that would matter because of his race.

 

I am not trying to play devil's advocate here. I would like discussion if there's some to be had.

[Blambo]

Ah I didn't mean to make an assumption about the ethnicity of the creators. I didn't mean to speak generally, but it was still a pretty crass thing to say. Sorry bout that.

 

But what I mean is that in the context of western studios adding non-western perspectives to their games in non-western settings, unless extensive research or incredible care is taken with creating the characters the creators have to go out on a limb to fully flesh out an accurate, non-problematic representation of the character. It doesn't mean that his ethnicity carries any less weight, it just means that the quality of the representation has great potential to be compromised. I'm probably giving the creators too little credit though.

 

I also know very little about Far Cry 4 but if the original cover and the main villain from the previous game are any indication, this villain character is going to be depicted as a despotic, sadistic, violent human being, so how his ethnicity is handled does matter a bunch. Sean wasn't saying (???? I'm not Sean so this is what I thought he was saying ????) that the ethnicity itself doesn't matter, I think he was saying that the quality of the representation has little to do with it and speaking of the character as if he were a real person (in which case the quality of the representation is 100%, cause he'd be a real person) is glazing over the fact that he has to be squeezed out by a different perspective...maybe.

 

I'm probably overthinking it, but...