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Cyberpunk Cop Killah (aka The Last Night)

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There'd be no need for any. It's only a feminist issue because women and their allies have been repeatedly under attack, by both anonymous trolls and self-appointed faces of the movement.

But I for the last two years think there has been a lot of talk about women in games, how women are portrayed in games, and general sexism in games. I was enjoying that. Then suddenly it all turned nasty and stupid based on one woman and man's relationship drama and a nonexistent ethical breach.

 

And I agree there's no way to even discuss ethics under the Gamergate hashtag. It's just a hate category. I don't know why if these people want to discuss ethics so badly they don't separate themselves, but I suppose now is not the time.

 

You can heap loads of tone policing on me until the cows come home...

I mean that's the thing, you link to a site I absolutely hate, I can't even read anything on there without a large degree of annoyance. I only had to scroll down and see an image mean and "butthurt" (which I consider a gay slur) to know the article is not for me. Jezebel et al under that Gawker umbrella are all just gossip sites filled with clickbait at their core, Kotaku included. I feel like they are just one step above the celebrity trash magazines on the stands. I suppose this year Kotaku has made an effort to be more relevant and way less puerile, but I have associated that site with bottom of the barrel journalism since it's beginning.

 

But I guess now I'm derailing this thread when it should be in the Ethics one in Idle Banter, but I would rather not go there to discuss it. Mission accomplished in this one. Soret got his feedback, so hopefully he sees another side more clearly if anything no matter the tone. Maybe not, maybe he is truly coming from Paris where it's more progressive and patriarchy stuff truly does seem foreign to him, I can't speak to that, I have only been to Paris once for a week and I don't know if anyone else on this forum lives there and can vouch for the culture, if it does truly matter to anyone where he is coming from.

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But I for the last two years think there has been a lot of talk about women in games, how women are portrayed in games, and general sexism in games. I was enjoying that. Then suddenly it all turned nasty and stupid based on one woman and man's relationship drama and a nonexistent ethical breach.

 

And I agree there's no way to even discuss ethics under the Gamergate hashtag. It's just a hate category. I don't know why if these people want to discuss ethics so badly they don't separate themselves, but I suppose now is not the time.

 

I feel like some people were waiting for it to turn nasty and stupid, for whatever reason. But yes, otherwise you're right. I'm also just ready not to be sad all the time.

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Jesus, I leave you people alone for five minutes

 

Part of the problem of "gamers" as a descriptor is that while it ostensibly means "someone who plays games", when we think of a "gamer" we think of a young, nerdy guy and not, say, my mum, or a queer former EMT who boxes and volunteers with the ACLU, or a feminist studies major who puts videos up on the internet. If you put photos of these people and a stereotypically young, nerdy guy and was asked 'which one is most like a "gamer"' people'd pick the guy every time. The descriptor is bound up in ideas about gender and demeanour that were, if we're going to be honest here, never true, but are less true than ever. And if basically everyone plays games, if the play instinct is as universal as the researchers insist it is, then we don't really need a word for someone who plays games, we don't need a culture defined by how we are different from others.

 

Gamers are dead. Long live games.

 

I also don't get how Anita Sarkeesian's videos are condemning games but this TV Tropes page isn't condemning all media everywhere, unless the person making the argument is either wrong or covering for their insistence that women can't have problems with the way they're portrayed.

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I don't know about anyone else but I've been aware of specific nastiness towards non-mainstream (e.g. feminist critics) going on for a long time, at least as far back as 2009. My own ignorance is to blame for not following feminist gaming culture before then, and it's myopic to speak about current events without understanding the historical and wider social context that they exist in.

 

I don't have anything else to add that hasn't been covered better by other people hundreds of times over, so allow me to add another derail. I also thought for a long time that "butthurt" had homophobic connotations, but apparently it just means "getting overly upset over a minor grievance, for example when a baby cries after falling on its bum". So yeah, I still think it's a weird phrase and I don't personally use it, but you can rest easy knowing that it's not an anti-gay slur.

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Then why do people call themselves movie buffs or cinephiles? Everyone watches movies! So we don't need words for that! "Gamer" is the same thing for me. I don't care about its past connotation or its future connotation or even its present connotation. It means what it means for me, and I will continue using it, and I'll be damned if I let someone who thinks I shouldn't tell me otherwise! It's the only way to get it to where I want it to be. I will say that I definitely do not think of a nerdy guy when I hear the word gamer. I think of two things: 1) a person who plays games and considers them important to their identity (e.g., me) and 2) bullshit like gamergate (i.e., bullshit). (EDIT: I guess there is the basic definition which is just "someone who plays games", but I'm willing to let that one fall off for the reasons you and others have stated before. When something becomes ubiquitous, the word doesn't need to be used that way. Fortunately, I'm not using it that way.) But I'm confident and willing enough to separate the first as the legitimate meaning as it is important to me, and the second as an unfortunate image association that I will work toward getting rid of by sheer force of will.

 

Unless you have a better suggestion? If something better comes along, I'm all ears. But there's nothing so far. Gamephile? Hehe no. Game buff? I guess? I'd rather just use gamer. I don't like the way buff sounds. Hmm. Vidconner! I could do that one, but only because it tickles my dumb-fictional-word-for-games fancy. But then it also sounds like I'm a conman.

 

I also thought the same thing re: "butthurt". That's interesting that it's not a gay slur. Where are you getting this definition from? Not that I don't believe you, but I am curious. (I also think it's just a dumb word, so I don't use it, either.)

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I don't know why if these people want to discuss ethics so badly they don't separate themselves, but I suppose now is not the time.

 

Because they don't really want to talk about ethics.  They want to talk about SJWs and the dangers of progressive thought in the games industry.  I think talking about all the things you brought up earlier are all super valuable topics.

 

The rest isn't a specific reply to you synthetic, just thoughts about all the other things that have gone on here. 

 

Even though some people were more abrasive in this thread, there isn't a mandate that you engage with people you think are being shitty to you.  A person always has the choice of who they want to reply to.  Tim chose to reply to the gamer definition part, and not anything else.  His choice. 

 

Twig mentioned this, but I think it's worth actually linking to one of the articles about the state of sexism in France.  One is of course entitled to one's own opinions and experiences, but that does not discount the experiences of others, particularly women in France. 

 

Tim, should you check this thread out again, while you do appear to have some good goals for the games you are making, that doesn't not mean that you are immune from having said things that are sexist or immune from criticism.  The last few years have taught us quite well that there are many people who have made important contributions to the world who are capable of saying shitty things.  Doing one does not make you immune from criticism for the other.  As for twisting your words, when you say "The entire work of Anita Sarkeesian consists of saying video games are making you sexist.", you've made a very simple and direct statement that deserves to be opposed, because it's ridiculous. 

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I also thought the same thing re: "butthurt". That's interesting that it's not a gay slur. Where are you getting this definition from? Not that I don't believe you, but I am curious. (I also think it's just a dumb word, so I don't use it, either.)

 

I'm pretty sure it originated from 4chan as that, back when I was much younger and used to frequent the site, like a spin on "Surprise butt sex." Maybe not? I don't know. All I have to go on is either other forums where people argue about it being about rape or about someone falling on their butt and like two Urban dictionary entries that support it.

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I'm pretty sure it originated from 4chan as that, back when I was much younger and used to frequent the site, like a spin on "Surprise butt sex." Maybe not? I don't know. All I have to go on is either other forums where people argue about it being about rape or being about someone falling on their butt and like two Urban dictionary entries that support it.

Hah, well, I'm willing to believe either origin, and I'm also willing to believe both definitions are used, and I also think that it's a dumb word either way! So I guess it doesn't really matter!

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Yeah I may have overstated how definitive the definition is, and it's totally gross when people use it as a rape joke. I try to take it on good faith that people aren't, but that's setting myself up for easy disappointment.

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As long as we've derailed this thread, I might as well talk about butthurt as well. I had never really thought about its possible origins, which may well be antigay, just childishly juvenile or both. But even if it were intended to be a kind of gay bashing thing, its kind of hilariously ignorant as anal sex is one of the universal forms of sex that any combination of gender or sexuality can engage in. Obviously anal sex is more associated with gay men, but that's the result of a cultural myth more than anything. At any rate, interesting food for thought.

Oh, and I always thought butthurt referred to hemorrhoids, which is a silly insult we would use in junior high. Because we thought it was a hilarious word.

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I guess because my experience with it in 4chan is it's usually targeted towards other guys on the site in sort of a demeaning way, as like a "sissy." Not that anal sex is exclusive to gay people. It often seemed to be used in combination with "butthurt faggot." I don't know I suppose Google searching it all, it seems in favor of the the less harmful definition, with Knowyourmeme citing earlier stuff and not mentioning the rape part and Encyclopedia Dramatica going vulgar as possible. Well I guess now I know not to take it that way necessarily.

 

It also appears you can no longer type butthurt on /v/. Odd.

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I guess because my experience with it in 4chan is it's usually targeted towards other guys on the site in sort of a demeaning way, as like a "sissy." Not that anal sex is exclusive to gay people. It often seemed to be used in combination with "butthurt faggot." I don't know I suppose Google searching it all, it seems in favor of the the less harmful definition, with Knowyourmeme citing earlier stuff and not mentioning the rape part and Encyclopedia Dramatica going vulgar as possible. Well I guess now I know not to take it that way necessarily.

 

It also appears you can no longer type butthurt on /v/. Odd.

 

I think it's fair to be extremely careful about preferring the more innocent etymology of a word known to come from a site that's otherwise steeped in rape culture and homophobia. Even if originally someone was thought to be butthurt because they were a baby with a rash and not because they were the recipient of figurative "surprise buttsecks," I doubt that held for long or is the case now, so even though I think the word's funny as hell, I try to find other ways to describe a person angry with entitlement and loss.

 

Also, I am really done derailing this thread. I feel terrible that I'm not letting other people discuss this game and instead that I've helped to turn it into a weird lovechild of Feminism and "Ethics and Journalistic Integrity."

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I always assumes "butthurt" came from the same place as "pain in the butt" but I just realized I don't know where that phrase comes from either. Wait, what is this thread about?

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So I checked out this Tim guys twitter and he follows holocaust denier and gamergate figurehead KingOfPol.

I can safely say I won't be perusing any of his work no matter how cool it looks.

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I mean that's the thing, you link to a site I absolutely hate, I can't even read anything on there without a large degree of annoyance. I only had to scroll down and see an image mean and "butthurt" (which I consider a gay slur) to know the article is not for me. Jezebel et al under that Gawker umbrella are all just gossip sites filled with clickbait at their core, Kotaku included. I feel like they are just one step above the celebrity trash magazines on the stands. I suppose this year Kotaku has made an effort to be more relevant and way less puerile, but I have associated that site with bottom of the barrel journalism since it's beginning.

I mean, congratulations on finding a way to discount an argument even less principled and sensible than what Tim used earlier in this thread, but whatever, here are some links that aren't your least favorite blogging platform:

 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument

 

http://tooyoungforthelivingdead.tumblr.com/tone-policing

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_argument

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Well part of my cheap shots at the article is most of my frustration with all of this mess, people continuously referring to gossip sites for their news and arguments. Either way, I should pretty much say I disagree with not bothering to control your tone anyway. These articles seem to think that no matter what by failing control your tone makes people use it as a strawman to dismiss your opinion so therefore you're opposition is in the wrong. I think what actually happens more often than not is no one wants to talk to a person who is acting like a jerk so they leave the conversation, hence why a lot of newer users just don't even bother in some of these threads after like one or two messages.

 

Plus I don't see how tone policing has anything to do with continuous bombardment by 10 different people typing paragraphs of the same thing to someone who may disagree. That's just being plain overwhelming.

 

On a personal leve, it hardly has ever worked well for me in real life or on the internet to just completely get pissed and believe me I know it all too well as most of my early 20s were filled with me not controlling myself in any manner. The theory with anger management is that continously being angry becomes a drug, like how policemen feed. I find unless you are preaching to the choir, making yourself seem like a complete jerk to the opposition for the sake of argument generally doesn't really accomplish a thing unless it's seriously a personal attack and for the sake of defense.

 

So I checked out this Tim guys twitter and he follows holocaust denier and gamergate figurehead KingOfPol.

It seems maybe this Pol guy said this stuff very recently? I don't seem to see that Tim Soret started following him after that. I would like him to come back and clarify that, as that's really shitty.

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It was hard to refrain from laughing when I saw Tim boldly make the claim that the patriarchy is just not a concept that exists in France. I suppose his line of thinking is that because they don't venerate John Wayne it must not be something that affects French people at all. It reminds me of a dinner party I went to where a Parisian couple were in attendance, and complaining about how awfully racist Americans are. When I pointed out how I saw a bunch very visible and ugly anti-immigration demonstrations when I visited Paris in 2008, the woman responded that they weren't anti-immigrant in Paris, they just wanted foreigners to behave more like the French.

 

I also love the irony that Tim appears to have completely missed the point of Leigh Alexander's "gamers are over" article.

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