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Hatred: The Most Despicable Game of All Time?

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Y'know, maybe it's because I'm an ignorant white kid, but back when I was in high school and everyone was getting up in arms about GTA3's violence, I feel like a game like this would've been fine because it was so absurd. (On reading what I just wrote, yeah, I was definitely just an ignorant as hell white kid)

 

Now I feel like it's just horrific, offensive, and should be taken out back by whoever is funding the company. I'm almost at the point of welcoming censorship, but then I remind myself why that isn't always the greatest approach. It's still reprehensible as hell though, the two executions with the people talking to you in that trailer really just make me feel disgusted.

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Everyone who thought that it was a nauseating power fantasy, step up and claim your no-prize! Hatred's being made by neo-Nazis.

The other shoe has finally dropped. Someone on a different board had alluded to them having Stormfront ties, and was mostly basing on the image of the developers wherein one is wearing a Żołnierze Wyklęci t-shirt. But at the time, there was no substantive proof out there.

 

This really is just the most disgusting thing I've seen in a while.

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I had the same reaction until I read polygon's piece on the trailer, updated with the following comment in response to Epic asking their logo be removed from all marketing material.

 

 

Then I headed over to their website which they have decided to call their "web command" because they're so fucking high minded.  Hatred seems to be the video game version of people who say "words are just words", ignoring the fact that meaning is what makes a word a word.  The fact that anyone thought that something as powerful as UE4 was mandatory for a top down shooter calls into question not just the premise of the game but the sanity of it's creators.  UE4 is only mandatory insofar as it allows the devs to further outrage people.  Everything about this game seems to be focused on stirring up a shit storm the same way think tanks release articles that are little more than thinly veiled insults.  They may as well be standing on top of a building screaming "PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" for all the difference it makes.  They make some claim about how society has somehow wronged the protagonist but are seemingly uninterested in addressing what exactly that means--almost like gamergate finally turned in on itself and morphed into an actual game.  I wish I could be more articulate about this at the moment, but I just really can not stand how absurd all this is, and I'm still hoping I'll wake up tomorrow to find out this was just an overly elaborate Onion article.

I think what he was saying was that he thought it was mandatory to include the UE logo in the promotional materials if they were using it, rather than that UE4 was mandatory. Epic had that requirement with previous versions of UE.

 

But yeah this game is super fucked up and gross. Somebody mentioned Postal, and this actually reminds me a lot of a modern Postal 1. Postal 2 had a dumb sense of humour about itself, but from what I remember of Postal 1, it was just creepy and graphic and violence-glorifying. I must have been pretty young and "woo violent video games" when I played it, but I remember getting uncomfortable and grossed out and deleting it. Hatred feels like the same game with modern graphics which make it all the more awful.

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Everyone who thought that it was a nauseating power fantasy, step up and claim your no-prize! Hatred's being made by neo-Nazis.

I was just about to say that the bio section for the team on their homepage makes them sound like dicks, or at least ridiculously juvenile. I was too lazy to connect the iconography to facist ideologies, but now that it's been brought up I can't say i'm suprised.

To people who argue that "Hatred" isn't fundementaly different from other shooters/violent games, I'd argue that you are conflating tone, theme, and mechanics. Shooter games mechanics at their core are tests of pattern recognition, reflexes, and spatial awareness. While the tone and themes of games like Call of Duty, Portal, and The Unfinished Swan are all widly different, they all share the same core mechanics. Violence isn't an intrinsic part of shooter "mechanics", even if it is overwhelmingly popular.

A game can have violence, but not have that violence be the dominant tone for that game. A lot of Costume Quest has you fighting goblins, and Might & Magic: Clash of Heroes is almost entirely battles. Depection matters, I'd be suprised if anyone considers these games to be "tonaly" violent.

Even when a game is clearly violent, violence itself may not be the central theme of the game. Hotline Miami was mentioned before, and Campster makes a interesting argument that the theme of the game is that narrative doesn't matter and that the "

" experience is the only thing players care about. Spec Ops: The Line is about a lot of things thematicaly, one of them being violence is not an effective solution to anything.

Hatred fits into that indulgent trifecta where violence is the only discernable aspect of the game. I don't have a problem with it existing*, other than a general dislike for games like that, and a bit of suspicion for people who uncriticaly enjoy playing such games. What I find to be really disturbing and worthy of condemnation is the justification put forth by the developers for creating this game. The lack of self-awareness, general ignorance, persecution-complex, and hostility is disgusting. I think public criticism is needed for this to not become normalised (or more be normalised than it already is), which is why I'm not just ignoring it as another "game" i'm not interested in.

I also just want to say that I don't think it's hypocritical for people to take issue with this game but not others (e.g. GTA series) for reasons i've mentioned above. Many people do have issues with GTA, but if they feel more strongly about "Hatred" i'd say it's because of the nuances they see between the two (hopefully).

*Now that i'm aware that it's probably neo-nazi propaganda - lots of problems with it existing.

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Everyone who thought that it was a nauseating power fantasy, step up and claim your no-prize! Hatred's being made by neo-Nazis.

 

I just learned that Fuck No Video Games has his/her/their own Tumblr.  That's useful information!

 

And fuck this game.

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Yeah violence in most games is incidental to an abstract gameplay conceit. The gameplay in this case is just shooting moving targets that don't shoot back. It's not narrative accentuating gameplay as they claim, its gameplay accentuating the narrative of genocide. It's ass. Ass of the highest degree.

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Yeah violence in most games is incidental to an abstract gameplay conceit. The gameplay in this case is just shooting moving targets that don't shoot back. It's not narrative accentuating gameplay as they claim, its gameplay accentuating the narrative of genocide. It's ass. Ass of the highest degree.

 

That's an interesting point. People always talk about "gameplay first," but there'd be rioting in the streets if you were just using a laser pointer to intersect different moving rectangles of various colors. The highly political (that is, offensive) nature of the theme is essential to this game's alleged appeal. They don't just get to handwave that away.

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And even if it isn't a gameplay conceit, I then wonder to myself if having reasons is in fact a good enough thing in itself. At least if someone has a reason to kill/murder/maim, we can make it logical- we may not agree with it, we may find it deplorable, but at least it's internally consistent. To get rid of that is to show chaotic insanity with no hope for turning the person away. Often we can say, "This character killed for his family" or "This character killed because he was driven by a terrible upbringing".

 

Having nothing there makes it just a depraved, sick act. Reasons matter. Intent matters.

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Yeah. It's very very columbine killers esque in the language the main character uses, so I'm assuming that there's some vague story about his upbringing.

It obviously hasn't come out yet. I gotta say I'm kind of intrigued to play it (or pirate it) just to see if they pull it in a certain direction. I have close to zero faith that they will though. Again, this will only be saved if it just remakes The Visit on the second level.

Edit: this is totally unrelated but I had an insane moment of fear when I saw your avatar because I thought some gater has sneakily swum up to our side of the pond and dragged its scaly belly into the conversation to make a bogus argument about gameplay. I am very bad.

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What do we think about this school of thought on stuff like this? Is it a good idea for people who have a problem with the thing to just not talk about it to try to deprive it of publicity? I have a few people espousing that on my facebook, you can see my thoughts on it in the replies to that tweet

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I would much rather have a conversation about general topics relating to it rather than put this thing at the forefront of all things, and omit the name entirely or use it sparingly.

And god damn it, the YouTube video got over 100,000 hits on its first day.

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And even if it isn't a gameplay conceit, I then wonder to myself if having reasons is in fact a good enough thing in itself. At least if someone has a reason to kill/murder/maim, we can make it logical- we may not agree with it, we may find it deplorable, but at least it's internally consistent. To get rid of that is to show chaotic insanity with no hope for turning the person away. Often we can say, "This character killed for his family" or "This character killed because he was driven by a terrible upbringing".

Having nothing there makes it just a depraved, sick act. Reasons matter. Intent matters.

I actually find it kind of worse in a lot of ways to try and engineer a reason and make the player should be comfortable killing people. Something like Hatred makes me super uncomfortable and would make me stop playing whereas something like GTA makes me happy to keep playing and I don't know what is worse.

It reminds me of a long time ago when I was playing Far Cry 2 (lol) and I got to a part where I was on a mission to break into some guy's base and kill him. I took out all the guards and made my way into his room which was an office and he was sitting at a desk. He started talking to me and he told me he knew I was there to kill him and that he wasn't going to try to stop me and I walked over to him with my pistol out. He looked up at me and said something and I pointed the gun at his head and shot him. That made me feel so uncomfortable that I quit the game immediately and haven't played since.

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There's a guarantee they won't be bringing it in a worthwhile direction- look at the marketing, the messaging, the people making it- they are not interested in having a conversation on the nature of violence in media. They're interested in using neo-nazi tropes to create a climate of controversy so they can get sales. They're hacks, plain and simple.

 

But I also don't like the idea of just dancing around their name. Sure, I don't want to link it on social media and spread it around, but dancing around what everyone is talking about is a sure-fire way to intellectual masturbation in a conversation.

 

 

 

Yeah. It's very very columbine killers esque in the language the main character uses, so I'm assuming that there's some vague story about his upbringing.

It obviously hasn't come out yet. I gotta say I'm kind of intrigued to play it (or pirate it) just to see if they pull it in a certain direction. I have close to zero faith that they will though. Again, this will only be saved if it just remakes The Visit on the second level.

Edit: this is totally unrelated but I had an insane moment of fear when I saw your avatar because I thought some gater has sneakily swum up to our side of the pond and dragged its scaly belly into the conversation to make a bogus argument about gameplay. I am very bad.

 

 

what you can't deal with my ANIME AVATAR?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

this right here this is real oppression YOU'RE THE RACIST BLAMBO

 

...but nah I just like independent anime art and super cute things so I went with this. I've been a Thumb since early podcast days but my old account broke in the migration to new forum software a year or two ago.

 

 

 

Edit: 

 

I actually find it kind of worse in a lot of ways to try and engineer a reason and make the player should be comfortable killing people. Something like Hatred makes me super uncomfortable and would make me stop playing whereas something like GTA makes me happy to keep playing and I don't know what is worse.

It reminds me of a long time ago when I was playing Far Cry 2 (lol) and I got to a part where I was on a mission to break into some guy's base and kill him. I took out all the guards and made my way into his room which was an office and he was sitting at a desk. He started talking to me and he told me he knew I was there to kill him and that he wasn't going to try to stop me and I walked over to him with my pistol out. He looked up at me and said something and I pointed the gun at his head and shot him. That made me feel so uncomfortable that I quit the game immediately and haven't played since.

 

I'm not sure I can agree. I'm a pacifist, but I also must acknowledge that people will inherently disagree with me- some thing killing people, whether it's a shot to the head or lethal injection, is an appropriate means of justice. I don't think that makes that person more prone to violence(if you listened to my language I say to myself during a particularly heated League of Legends match you'd see that- I never chat it, but I definitely say it out loud when I'm alone), I think it just is a place where we disagree.

 

I also think that death and violence have places in stories, that they can explore feelings and relationships that are generally only at the fringes of life, or society. I'd love to play a game where it was a character story about a psychopathic killer- don't glorify what he does, but get into his head, show the places where it's broken and fucked up. I watched Downfall(the movie all those Hitler memes came from) for the same reasons- seeing the places that make these people human remind you that anyone, anyone at all, can fall into those lines of thinking given the right circumstances, so don't make these people into monsters, make them into case studies of how to avoid turning to hate and violence as a means of expression.

 

In the process, I think killing in games is fine. I think it's even more fine when the killing is just a quick metaphor as a means to exact gameplay mechanics- it's why I find the violence in Mordor so over the top and deplorable, is that it doesn't have a gameplay correlation, it's nothing but violence for the sake of gore.

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Ok, fuck this.

 

What infuriates me right now is some responses in this thread (second page mainly, disgusting) aren't taking this game's central mechanical conceit as being super fucking problematic and worth questioning. Despite the apolitical, text-less stance the devs say their game embraces, it still communicates extreme fascist ideology and imagery, specially within the context of white supremacy. The game's whole mechanical conceit is terrorism against innocents. Interesting how the trailer lavishly displays the murder of women and people of color.

 

BUT NAAAH, it's totally dumb and silly, u guyz, there's worse stuff out there, it's something a teen would make, just another Hotline Miami, whatever, lol.

 

No fuck that, and fuck you. This IS as despicable as other horrendous trash like Rapeplay and Ethnic Cleansing. It IS already completely fucking bad and trash as it is right now. This isn't a motherfucking contest. This shouldn't be a fucking debate. If they added points to killing people in this game, that would only reinforce the already heavy incentivization to perpetrate in-game terrorism. It'd be a solely dumb and purely infantile if it wasn't so confident and extremist in its fascist gameplay. The violent and immature work of a teenage dork doesn't compare to the work of a bunch of grown ass Neo-Nazi white dudes with the experience and passion for making a game suited to their regressive political thoughts. 

 

The fact this trash exists should be taken SERIOUSLY. Media/art affects people, this isn't big news. The fact that "lol voices are so silly lol" and "omg so this is just hotline miami then?" dilutes the blatant fact that this is problematic, irresponsible, and regressive trash made by fascists for fascists. It dilutes the fact that this has the power to change the minds of people and rally them to believe in horrendous shit.  

 

Games like Postal and the GTA series are a bunch of conservative/libertarian satirical garbage, but at the very least killing innocents is an option in those games and is presented in ridiculous and cartoonish ways. Hatred's goal is to give players the tools to create power fantasies a skin-head would only dream of within realistic settings and contexts. It's goal is for you to commit terrorism. You are FORCED to do that, it's your only means of mechanical expression. We should be condemning this garbage and not dismiss it as yet another silly excessively violent game. 

 

Discussions on this game should start and end with "this is reprehensible garbage, let's not waste our time and energy on it." If you literally think there should be a debate on that or if there is shit worth discussing on that statement, please reflect on your position or go fuck yourself, please. I don't even understand why this trash even has its own thread when we could discuss it in the Random Thoughts About Games thread where it can eventually be buried with things actually worth talking, debating and sharing. Giving it it's own unique space of discussion fucking irks the shit out of me, specially with a title that suggests this game and others like it should be compared and contrasted to see which one is worse. Fuck that, they are all bad, this is not a fucking contest.

 

Btw, if you're going to respond to this post, please take your time and think about what you're going to say, because if you couldn't tell, I'm not fucking light on bullshit like this. If you think I'm being too hyperbolic, too angry, and/or taking this game too seriously, I'm sorry but fuck you (not sorry) and rethink on what you're telling me or what you're going to say to me. I don't have time for fucking diplomatic discussions on trash that affects minorities such as myself and others.

 

Remember, this game is made by Neo-Nazi fascists and reinforces their ideology. The consequences it could have on others is serious and is worth condemning for. Condemn it till it stays buried under the fucking ground.

 

That is all.

 

EDIT: Read and/or re-read what Bjorn linked. Also, I've decided that won't bother answering to anyone or posting more shit in this thread. I've said what I wanted to say, and I don't want to waste my time on this garbage anymore. Have fun with what I wrote or w/e, I'm not walking into this thread again.

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Remember, this game is made by Neo-Nazi fascists and reinforces their ideology. The consequences it could have on others is serious and is worth condemning for. Condemn it till it stays buried under the fucking ground.

 

That is all.

 

EDIT: Read and/or re-read what Bjorn linked.

 

What am I, chopped liver?

 

Though honestly I agree; it was a gross idea, I didn't watch the trailer, and now it's clear it's being made by a poisonous ideology I don't see any difference between it and anything else that comes out of a poisonous ideology.

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Discussions on this game should start and end with "this is reprehensible garbage, let's not waste our time and energy on it." If you literally think there should be a debate on that or if there is shit worth discussing on that statement, please reflect on your position or go fuck yourself, please. I don't even understand why this trash even has its own thread when we could discuss it in the Random Thoughts About Games thread where it can eventually be buried with things actually worth talking, debating and sharing. Giving it it's own unique space of discussion fucking irks the shit out of me, specially with a title that suggests this game and others like it should be compared and contrasted to see which one is worse. Fuck that, they are all bad, this is not a fucking contest.

 

I think it's worth discussing why this is worse than a Hotline Miami, a GTA, or Postal. I think it's worth codifying exactly what makes this worse, how a similar game can be used to explore themes or ideas that haven't been explored and may be thought provoking in their own right.

 

Furthermore, I think responding so vitriolically to people just because they're not as angry about something as you is pretty childish and shitty. Sure, if they thought the game was fine, go ahead. But you're talking about people who had nothing to go off of but the trailer itself, hadn't done more research(which isn't some cardinal sin, considering when they made those posts most of the research hadn't been done yet), and then jumped so thoroughly down their throat that I don't even know how to propose the idea that you can learn from bad, terrible things to you.

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Furthermore, I think responding so vitriolically to people just because they're not as angry about something as you is pretty childish and shitty.

That's just how he is when he doesn't like something. It's an, um, acquired taste?

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Pepyri it does kind of suck when something you care a lot about is treated in a manner so blasé, but Cine I assure you the only reason why people are talking about this is because they feel shitty about it.

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Maybe it's just me, but I did not notice the trailer mostly depicted violence to non-whites. I just saw a long haired guy executing various people.

I just re-watched the trailer because of the mentions of racism etc.. And yes it's true, pretty much all highlighted executions are against non-whites. Does this my view I posted earlier. Well, yeah, because now the game does present a purpose for this violence: ethnic cleansing. They should have present a more balanced set of executions, 1 white person, 1 colored person, 1 asian person, and 1 puppy. That would be way more political correct. Of course there's still the ties to white supremacy which would make that political correct presentation of executions rather dubious.

I'm not sorry for my initial view on the game due to me not acknowledging any race or ethnicity being presented in the trailer.

 

 

I wonder what those gamergate people think about this game.

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Uh.

I mean.

It's still abhorrent even if it's race neutral, right? At its core it's a shitty power fantasy that reflects and has the potential to propagate destructive attitudes.

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The fact this trash exists should be taken SERIOUSLY. Media/art affects people, this isn't big news. The fact that "lol voices are so silly lol" and "omg so this is just hotline miami then?" dilutes the blatant fact that this is problematic, irresponsible, and regressive trash made by fascists for fascists. It dilutes the fact that this has the power to change the minds of people and rally them to believe in horrendous shit.

For me it's worth invoking other games and considering them in comparison, Hotline Miami specifically. People from these forums played that game and digested the narrative and maybe enjoyed it (I did) but the Idle Forums are populate by literate and thoughtful readers. For every one of them there's arguably a dozen others who blasted through Hotline Miami skipping the cutscenes and the 'reasons' for he murderous rampage. For them, and the general media who ignore the narrative or don't take the time to dig around for different readings, it's more or less the same as this. It's worrying that other games too have the same power but have been accepted by those in the know (ie. us, OBVIOUSLY) because the preferred reading is ironic or satirical.

It also concerns me, as someone who generally abhors violence and recoils from the recreational murder of innocents in 'reality'-based worlds, that I enjoyed Hotline Miami so much when it shares so many superficial details with this. Blambo's comments shed some light on it, but this game makes me sit back and consider how easily and readily I obfuscate such violence in other games through noble character motivations or satisfying mechanics or orcs.

I had to cleanse myself before bed last night with a few green stars in Mario Galaxy 2.

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