Sign in to follow this  
Rob Zacny

Episode 275: The Rise of Nations Show

Recommended Posts

Where does one begin to discuss what has been called "The Official Game of Three Moves Ahead"? 

 

Tom would say: by describing the sublime user interface, or maybe the clever ways the game handles technology and advancement. Perhaps the deft grace with which it weaves the entirety of human history into one lunch break. In summary, Tom thinks this game is the cat's pajamas. Listen in as he waxes poetic alongside Rob and special guest Sean Sands.

 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven't listened to the show yet, but about cat's pajamas:

RoN is the best real-time "grand" strategy, for lack of a better word. Similar to Total Anihilation in that the war is not won by Blizzardish micromanagement, but by strategic choices on a grand scale. It's even better than Civiliation in this regard cause here it's all sawn together so close and seamlessly while in Civilzation war happens in sort of parallel universe.

 

Why then are there generals and spies in the game? Why can I try to turn the tide by bribing soldiers or by creating decoys? Why do I get bonus damage for attacking artillery from the sides?

 

And then the sequel went into schizophrenic frenzy of having 4X Starcraft in mushroom universe.

 

EDIT: I've listened to the show and was utterly humiliated twice since I've written this post.

 

It's sad we don't get more games like this. Cause they are as ambitious as you get. If Sid Meier stops making Civilizations tomorrow we won't get spiritual successors for a long time. And definitely no 4X-RTS.

 

Now I'll go to train my Alt-click on AI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very sorry I missed this show because of a scheduling snafu.

 

And yes, I would have totally turned the discussion to one about faction design, because there are some rich and valuable lessons in this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YES!!!

 

 

Started playing RoN again after it came back out on Steam, great epic type game that can be finished in a hour....it's like, fast food Civilization.....

 

 

I played this game to absolute death back in 2004, good game...matchmaker multiplayer is still the weak link in the chain, the last patch seems to have improved things playing with my buddies. 

 

 

 

I guess WWI got in the way of talking about this when it came back out a couple months ago? :P  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit : Rob, you disappoint.....crazy talk...

 

 

((Talking about borders)) - Roman fort push, its good, if you like changing your borders...get set up a neat WWI type type static battle line defense in depth....

 

Also, Rob....

 

[Tab] -  is your friend, also building a second library is...well, its nice to have

 

 

 

 

 

Edit Edit : RoN does have kind of a set build order, but, its really only applicable to the first 2 minutes? IF that, beyond that it really depends on who your playing and what your position is and what you plan to do. Researching Science first, always is good because it makes all research cheaper, researching a few levels of tech before age two is usually useful because with Classical age you suddenly have to use knowledge, and since it just appeared you won't have any...so getting a leg up in research using only food and wood is nice, BUT that relies on some defenses, not rushing and not getting pressed too hard in the start. ....if your attacked early that kinda goes out the window....

 

 

.....another super important economy tid bit is NOT just building workers when you need one....pull existing workers off a resource that is hitting the economy cap, if you pull one or 2 off of wood and its still flashing yellow, you literally aren't losing anything by taking them off since their labor was wasted effort anyway. THEN you now have 2 "free" civies to use and you saved food to build troops with or tech or whatever. 

 

 

But yeah, I tend to have a (pretty loose) build order in the very start, mostly aimed at getting food and timber going strong in the first city and getting the next one up and running while teching using food and wood...as you want to have started collecting gold for scholars before age 2, so you aren't just sitting there waiting for gold when you could be generating knowledge....the whole game is about efficiency and minimizing waste, you can't really spam, or you shouldn't...

 

 

 

Oh, and you can micro, I think you select a type of unit and then [sHIFT] click on the enemy unit...so you can tell your different types of units to attack their natural targets....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please revisit, there is so much more to talk about,  best episode since the EUIV and Crusader Kings episodes....

 

 

 

I didn't like Rise of Legends, was.....not.....interested.....

 

I didn't like that you only had 3 factions....of course they were completely unique, THERE WERE ONLY 3...I mean, they were completely different...but....I have bitter feelings toward RoL, as, like was said, it sorta killed any hope of a sequel to RoN...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, I was so pumped for Rise of Nations when it was released on Steam. Unfortunately for whatever reason I have terrible issues with overscanning in this game, and it typically takes a bunch of steps for me to fix, and I have to keep doing it over and over again so it has become kind of a headache and had a demoralizing effect on me wanting to play this classic. :-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really want to hear what Troy has to say on unique nations representation. This is one of many aspects making RoN great: nations really feel different moreso than in Civilizations yet they don't become 1-gimmick nation like Civ5 Venice or Maya. They feel complex and have many different features with most being more than archetype. English are not just bowmen and admirals, they also have taxation system and good planes.

 

Also can anyone tell me: what should be the German weakness? What are they bad at? It seems all games try just to ignore some parts of Germany. Civ5 forgets that Germany is country of industry, culture and philosophy, Civ4 ignores trading history and Rise of Nations forgets about culture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

EDIT: I've listened to the show and was utterly humiliated twice since I've written this post.

 

I can't tell if you mean "utterly humiliated" because I got up on a soapbox about Rise of Legends, but if so, don't feel bad.  I have a real weak spot for that game's attempt at a crazy new fiction and some really superslick gameplay.  There are things in Rise of Legends that no other game has done because I'm convinced so few people appreciate what Rise of Legends actually accomplished.  But that's probably a topic for a whole other show. :)

 

And if you're talking about the micro stuff you can do in Rise of Nations, don't feel bad about that.  The level that most casual people play works just fine without that stuff.  Heck, before the Thrones and Patriots add-on, I bet no one even built generals.  They basically had to give you one for free before you even noticed them!

 

   -Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.....another super important economy tid bit is NOT just building workers when you need one....pull existing workers off a resource that is hitting the economy cap, if you pull one or 2 off of wood and its still flashing yellow, you literally aren't losing anything by taking them off since their labor was wasted effort anyway. THEN you now have 2 "free" civies to use and you saved food to build troops with or tech or whatever. 

 

 

But yeah, I tend to have a (pretty loose) build order in the very start, mostly aimed at getting food and timber going strong in the first city and getting the next one up and running while teching using food and wood...as you want to have started collecting gold for scholars before age 2, so you aren't just sitting there waiting for gold when you could be generating knowledge....the whole game is about efficiency and minimizing waste, you can't really spam, or you shouldn't...

 

 

Oh, and you can micro, I think you select a type of unit and then [sHIFT] click on the enemy unit...so you can tell your different types of units to attack their natural targets....

 

Whoa, what?  I never knew about that last one.  Can you explain more what you mean?  Shift-click an enemy to specify that target type?  So if I select a bunch of cavalry and shift-rtclick an artillery piece, the cavalry will prioritize artillery?  Is that what you mean?  Do tell!

 

Great comments about economy and build orders, Yalk.  One of the things I *always* do, and I can trying to explain to the guys when we did our show, was the CV trick.  C selects a city, and V is the hotkey to build a citizen.  So every now and then, just hit CV, CV, CV, CV as many times as you have cities.  Each city will spit out a citizen, who will eventually auto-work the closest job, or be available next time you want to use the period key to pick up a worker.  This is especially important before you uncover oil to ensure you have enough manpower to get oil wells going.

 

   -Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really want to hear what Troy has to say on unique nations representation.

 

Yeah, me too.  I loved Troy's series on national identities.  

 

Although I actually feel it's a weakness in Rise of Nations for the most part.  The variety of gameplay systems swallows up most of the nations' unique identities as a match goes on.  There are some great one, and some very important differences among a few of them.  For instance, Rome, the Dutch, and Egypt are all favorites for me that very specifically inform how I play.  But for the most part, the nations in Rise of Nations are among the power-user features I talked about on the podcast.  Almost like the interplay of scouts and spies, or alt-rtclick, or river crossing penalties in combat, you can play dozens of hours of Rise of Nations and never get much mileage out of nation differences.

 

   -Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, I was so pumped for Rise of Nations when it was released on Steam. Unfortunately for whatever reason I have terrible issues with overscanning in this game, and it typically takes a bunch of steps for me to fix, and I have to keep doing it over and over again so it has become kind of a headache and had a demoralizing effect on me wanting to play this classic. :-(

 

Noooo!  Do you happen to have a copy of the original?  I have no problems running the original game on Windows 7.

 

    -Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys spurred me to play this one again. I'm not a fan of RTS games, although I have played all the good ones. This was by far my favorite. (followed by Kohan)

 

I'd forgotten how good the tutorials are for this. It may have had had the best tutorial for an RTS at the time it was released.

 

"You can play on your lunch hour"...I agree, that is true, and it is a strength, but also a bit of a liability -- the ages fly by, sometimes so fast that you almost miss them. But perhaps this is just a personal thing. I am going to try playing with the game speed a little slower.

 

I am terrible at RTS games, and I will always be terrible, but games like RoN and Air Land Battle make me wish I was good at them. I'd love to play RoN in a comp stomp.

 

Great episode, thanks for reminding me how good this game is.

 

Edit: And, boy, would I love to see Brian Reynolds on the show (again) to talk about this game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't tell if you mean "utterly humiliated" because I got up on a soapbox about Rise of Legends, but if so, don't feel bad.  I have a real weak spot for that game's attempt at a crazy new fiction and some really superslick gameplay.  There are things in Rise of Legends that no other game has done because I'm convinced so few people appreciate what Rise of Legends actually accomplished.  But that's probably a topic for a whole other show. :)

 

RoL is a great game. I haven't ever played MP but I remember campaign being interesting from gameplay perspective but later getting into total batshit insane territory by the time you're getting into the third part. I hope it gets on Steam so I can see its MP side too. Do predetermined cities and less techs make it less complex than RoN?

 

 

Almost like the interplay of scouts and spies, or alt-rtclick, or river crossing penalties in combat, you can play dozens of hours of Rise of Nations and never get much mileage out of nation differences.

 

I'm trying to beat RoN campaigns and some scenarios highlight the problem. In, say, Alexander the Great campaign you have various Greek factions. I've assumed each one had Power of Philosophy. But then they give me one as an ally I can switch to and I notice that Supply Wagons heal me. So those particular Greeks are really French. And I don't even know who others are.

 

And I wouldn't noticed anything at all if they were some Turks with purely numerical bonuses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RoL is a great game. I haven't ever played MP but I remember campaign being interesting from gameplay perspective but later getting into total batshit insane territory by the time you're getting into the third part. I hope it gets on Steam so I can see its MP side too. Do predetermined cities and less techs make it less complex than RoN?

 

Excellent question, but difficult to answer.  Although you can clearly see the Big Huge Games DNA in both Rise of Nations and Rise of Legends, they're distinct beasts with distinct kinds of depth.  The heroes in Rise of Legends give it more tactical detail along the lines of Starcraft.  But the citybuilding is extremely streamlined compared to Rise of Nations.  But then there's the power of the specific sites on the map.  Then there's the tech tree, which has crazy amounts of gameplay put into it in comparison to Rise of Nations. And, of course, the EXTREME asymmetry among the three factions is like nothing you'll ever see in Rise of Nations.

 

So is it more of less complex? I'm not sure I could say.  It's a different kind of complex. :)

 

   -Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So is it more of less complex? I'm not sure I could say.  It's a different kind of complex. :)

 

   -Tom

 

Perhaps it's complex in a more traditional way. You can play it like Warcraft with more economics/research. RoN, on the other hand, is hard to grasp. I've struggled with it 10 years ago and I still do.

 

Cause I instantly want to play it as city builder or Civilization. I understand that building barracks in Ancient Era is useful to raid enemy or scout the map. But I can build 2 more farms! I can research Science 2! And then it's Enlightenment Era and even moderate AI eventually successfully defends from my populace cap grand army. Which feels uncontrollable, by the way. Even with alt-click. 

 

I remember RoL having more manageable scope. It was innovative in a more... convenient and recognizable way, I say. Gameplaywise, not storywise, of course. 

 

It's a shame RoL can't be bought digitally. Meanwhile Microsoft allows you to download the demo. Evil, evil Microsoft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoa, what?  I never knew about that last one.  Can you explain more what you mean?  Shift-click an enemy to specify that target type?  So if I select a bunch of cavalry and shift-rtclick an artillery piece, the cavalry will prioritize artillery?  Is that what you mean?  Do tell!

 

Great comments about economy and build orders, Yalk.  One of the things I *always* do, and I can trying to explain to the guys when we did our show, was the CV trick.  C selects a city, and V is the hotkey to build a citizen.  So every now and then, just hit CV, CV, CV, CV as many times as you have cities.  Each city will spit out a citizen, who will eventually auto-work the closest job, or be available next time you want to use the period key to pick up a worker.  This is especially important before you uncover oil to ensure you have enough manpower to get oil wells going.

 

   -Tom

 

 

Yep, unless I'm utterly confused (which is possible, I'll check tonight to make sure). You double click a unit which selects that "type" of unit, you then [sHIFT] click its scissors to paper target and it will then prioritize its natural prey. (((EDIT-obviously it only does what you tell it to do, if you tell cavalry to charge the enemy pikemen this way they will do it)))

 

So, Double click  Archers and shift click Hvy Inf. then Double click Light Cav. and Shift click supply wagons and arty. Then your guys should keep going after that type of unit. I actually played last night, I forgot to do this because I had to just "send the boys" and hope they did some work. 

 

 

Another thing on economy and to comment on what you said,

 

First

 

I use the infinite build alot, since Queing up units in mass charges you the cost immediately, selecting 1 to build and then hitting the infinite build button means you only get charged per unit built. So if you can spare to wait a bit, its useful if you need to spend big bucks on techs or buildings but want a steady stream of (Troops, ships, citizens)

 

Second, 

 

Way point flags, they are great. Select a city then select the "All resources" flag waypoint, it will put flags on all the gathered resource points around your city. meaning later in the game you can do your CV trick or infinite build and not even have to wait on them to start working, they just go immediately to start harvesting. This is especially useful if you've gotten in the habit like I have of "enlisting" currently built workers to build buildings. so I usually need to replenish the harvesters from time to time

 

I can't remember if this was mentioned or not but, you can select a general or army group as the waypoint for your military buildings. if its a  control group number they will automagically join that control group. So if you have a army that isn't in danger of getting slaughtered you can have your military buildings auto reinforcing them. Just gotta protect your reinforcement stream. 

 

I never ever have idle citizens, ever. most of the time your at the resource cap anyway, if I need something built I take a harvester from something that is capped out. If nothing is capped out currently I usually need the building before I need those few extra resources, I then take a harvester and turn them into a builder to start building (added benefit of they will usually be close to what I need built) and then I may que up a citizen at the nearest city, with the auto waypoint flags they will go somewhere to work (they auto go to not capped out resources first) Other times, you usually only need citizen for a short time to build a building, I usually tell the 1 or several workers to build the building and when they are done they will go back almost instantly to harvesting again. 

 

 

Kind of in the same vein of thought, when you build wonders in a city, I just select the entire city work force and tell them to build the wonder, its done very quickly with 20 people hammering it, then they auto go back to what they were doing. 

 

BTW, Tom THANK YOU for the Alt+attack order, man, that shit is amazing. I never knew, I always did it manually (Maybe I did, I can't remember now, its been a while since 2004). Hot keys were never my strong suit in RTS games. This one is killer though. I do have a problem with the odd artillery piece being outside the infantry meat shield though. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd love to play with if you guys if ya'll pick it up to play again

 

 

If anyone on here wants a game, or a comp stomp PM on here?  and we can trade Steam ID's. I don't get much time to play now as I used to back in 2004, I know some tricks but honestly suck pretty hard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Folks, long time listener and Goodjer here. I don't typically post here but I had to comment on my favorite RTS of all time - Rise of Nations. I left town on a business trip the day after this podcast was published and it made traveling easier getting to listen to you guys talk. 

 

I have the original version so I haven't bothered with the Steam version. I guess that means I won't be able to hook up with anyone for multiplayer. :(

 

I have to respectfully disagree with you Tom about Rise of Legends but you've convinced me to re-install and reassess it. I remember being disappointed with how not-Rise-of-Nations it was. Specifically things like designated places to put cities instead of wherever you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love Rise of Nations, but I have an issue with the claim that Rise of Nations is more flexible and has more options than Starcraft 2. It's true that when a race in Starcraft becomes weak and unsure of "the right way to play," that can cause a negative feedback loop. But I don't think that says much about the "depth" or "flexibility" of Starcraft vs. Rise of Nations. And this is because you're missing one crucial thing: the Starcraft 2 has a massive professional competitive scene, while Rise of Nations never has.

 

I know you guys have said you're not interested in the cut-throat, "figure out every nuance and build order" type of competitiveness, and I'm the same way for my own personal playing (although I love following the professional SC2 scene as a spectator). But you have to recognize that, if there was an extensive competitive scene for Rise of Nations, games would almost certainly look a lot different. Heck, in Starcraft, there can appear to be more depth and flexibility among casual, non-competitive players, just like for casual Rise of Nations players. But at the highest levels of competitive play, some of these "options" simply aren't viable, because the players no a lot more about how to read what their opponent is doing, and what their opponent's options are in the next 2-3 minutes of gameplay. If you decide to execute a clever strategy that involves sacrificing some military for a fast boom, but you haven't analyzed the timings correctly, a skillful opponent might realize that there's going to be a 30 second window where they can punish you and win the game. In a competitive game, there are fewer viable options, but I still think the strategy and tactics are deeper, because you need to know what options of viable and how to identify what your opponent is planning.

 

But just because casual opponents won't be able to punish suboptimal strategies, I don't think it's accurate to say that a casually played RTS truly has more options than a fiercely competitive one. I have no idea how to play chess, other than the rules of how the pieces move, so I might think that I have tons of options for how to move. Obviously, an even slightly competitive chess player would realize that only a tiny portion of the legal moves are even remotely viable. I certainly don't think that means that fiercely competitive chess is somehow shallower or less flexible than casual chess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this