Jake

Idle Thumbs 174: Live from the Metropolitan Ballroom

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Am I the only person who gets exponentially more fatigued the more expansions exist for a game that's already good just out of the box? I am like ninety percent less likely to play The Duke now, it's reaching Arkham Horror territory.

 

That was my reaction to Killer Bunnies.  I played it once at a party, thought it was cool, and went to buy it.  Only to discover that it already had like 7 or 8 expansions, and I just brain locked.  I don't know if it's a collector's compulsion, or fear of missing out on some component, or what.  But when I see that much additional content has already been released, I totally kills my desire for the base game. 

 

I did buy 2 expansions for Arkham, and swore to never buy any more.  They just make the game more unwieldy, but the additional characters and location cards are nice to have. 

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That was my reaction to Killer Bunnies.  I played it once at a party, thought it was cool, and went to buy it.  Only to discover that it already had like 7 or 8 expansions, and I just brain locked.  I don't know if it's a collector's compulsion, or fear of missing out on some component, or what.  But when I see that much additional content has already been released, I totally kills my desire for the base game. 

 

I did buy 2 expansions for Arkham, and swore to never buy any more.  They just make the game more unwieldy, but the additional characters and location cards are nice to have. 

 

I managed to push through it with Battlestar Galactica, but that's the only one. Even there, I bought all the expansions, played about a half-dozen games where all they did was add complexity, confusion, and playtime to an already-complete design, and then spent about three months agonizing about not owning the "full" game anymore as I sold them off on eBay.

 

FFG is the biggest culprit for this (half their expansions are just like, "Hey everybody, now that you've reached the end goal of this game, put everything down and play a smaller and shittier game-within-a-game to see if you really reached the end goal!") but I can see Kickstarter stretch-goal bloat getting just as bad. I bought into the Fief 1429 kickstarter and got kind of grossed out by all the "exclusive" expansion packs they came up with by the end.

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I don't agree with this idea that expansions are bad for boardgames. The only question is how well it plays as a game. Netrunner, Race For The Galaxy, even Carcassonne play well with no expansions. Carcassonne gets a bit better once you've played it a bunch but only like 2 expansions are worth getting.

 

Arkham Horror has the best expansion in boardgaming, it expands all your other expansions. 

 

Dominion is up there with expansions. 

 

Maybe it's a mismatch of modern DLC versus older expansion models like Tales of the Sword Coast?

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I don't agree with this idea that expansions are bad for boardgames. The only question is how well it plays as a game. Netrunner, Race For The Galaxy, even Carcassonne play well with no expansions. Carcassonne gets a bit better once you've played it a bunch but only like 2 expansions are worth getting.

 

Arkham Horror has the best expansion in boardgaming, it expands all your other expansions. 

 

Dominion is up there with expansions. 

 

Maybe it's a mismatch of modern DLC versus older expansion models like Tales of the Sword Coast?

 

I didn't say that they're all bad. Some board games are unequivocally improved by their expansions (see, for example, the Power Up expansion for King of Tokyo). What I am saying is that a board game with a bunch of different expansions just a couple years after release turns me off as a potential buyer, because it implies a lot of extra time (to figure out which expansions are worth buying) and money (to buy said expansions) to be invested beyond the game I already own and am often struggling to get to the table already. Like I've said before, I'd just rather buy a board game that's complete out of the box, however expensive, than get the sense that my purchase of the base game is the first act of a year-long saga spent collecting and learning and pitching all the expansions piecemeal.

 

There are also certain companies (Fantasy Flight Games, above all) that expand their games whether or not expansions make sense, and often these expansions are eighty percent terrible and twenty percent genius, which makes for another fatiguing decision to make.

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I didn't say that they're all bad. Some board games are unequivocally improved by their expansions (see, for example, the Power Up expansion for King of Tokyo). What I am saying is that a board game with a bunch of different expansions just a couple years after release turns me off as a potential buyer, because it implies a lot of extra time (to figure out which expansions are worth buying) and money (to buy said expansions) to be invested beyond the game I already own and am often struggling to get to the table already. Like I've said before, I'd just rather buy a board game that's complete out of the box, however expensive, than get the sense that my purchase of the base game is the first act of a year-long saga spent collecting and learning and pitching all the expansions piecemeal.

 

There are also certain companies (Fantasy Flight Games, above all) that expand their games whether or not expansions make sense, and often these expansions are eighty percent terrible and twenty percent genius, which makes for another fatiguing decision to make.

 

Usually reviews of board games take into account expansions if they're out already and they don't consider future expansions. Some review writers do have a fetish for collecting smaller boxes and emptying them into the larger box that they also bought to hold the whole game + expansions. Almost every board game I've played has the base game be a worthwhile experience to play and you buy the expansion later on when you want a bit more of the same game. 

 

When one guy buys a game and all 4 expansions for it is when the night can go to shit. No one's played the base game and the expansions assume familiarity with the base thing while also being more complex. Civilization the Board Game with an extra dials for financial investments in addition to the three in one dial resource system, the tech pyramid, etc. is overwhelming. Battlestar Galactica is hard enough to do a convincing game of traitors if one player spends an extra minute reading their Role Card. The role cards either say "You are not a traitor" or "You a traitor. Here are 2 paragraphs of possible actions of betrayal with specific timings".

 

Chaos in the Old World's expansion straight up replaces the base game's player decks of spells and all the upgrades. I've never played a game of CITOW without the expansion.

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Am I the only person who gets exponentially more fatigued the more expansions exist for a game that's already good just out of the box? I am like ninety percent less likely to play The Duke now, it's reaching Arkham Horror territory.

 

I feel the same way, unless the game is designed from the ground up, like Netrunner. In fairness to The Duke, it actually seems to be a bit closer to that type of game, rather than the "expansions out of control" thing that happens to games like Arkham Horror or Carcassone. Adding new pieces seems almost like adding new cards to an LCG cardpool. In fact, a "constructed" variant of The Duke would be pretty interesting.

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Some tabletop games are much more conducive to expansions than others. Netrunner, Dominions, Cosmic Encounters, etc. work well because they are essentially decks of cards.

 

The problem with Arkham Horror is that there is just so much stuff!

 

I try to stick to a rule of only buying one expansion.

 

The Carcassone situation is ridiculous though. Someone gave me the Big Box as a birthday present one year, and that thing is ridiculously large. You would look at it and think that's all the expansions, but nope! Not even close!

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Certain games have a ton of expansions that are unique to certain regions as well. Both Catan and Bohnanza have dozens of expansions that have only been released in Europe.

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Certain games have a ton of expansions that are unique to certain regions as well. Both Catan and Bohnanza have dozens of expansions that have only been released in Europe.

 

And if we go into limited-run promos I will just stop eating until I die. Thankfully, I've never known of a good promo. The Firefly one was notable for making what are already the best characters in the game even better for no really defensible reason.

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Chaos in the Old World's expansion straight up replaces the base game's player decks of spells and all the upgrades. I've never played a game of CITOW without the expansion.

 

You really should. The upgrades aren't as interesting, but it's a pretty different mix and a great experience. And by some accounts, it's the tightest version of the game.

 

In general, I am all for games I like being a) expandable by design and b.) expanded like crazy, and I love how full of variety and specific thematic bits games like Arkham Horror and Sentinels of the Multiverse have gotten (it's one of my biggest criticisms of Eldritch Horror when regarded as a replacement for Arkham the way so many seem to, although we're already on announced expansion #2 for that, so I expect that will be changing rapidly). That said, as someone buying into a game that's already been out and accumulating additional content, it does end up being a bit of a turnoff. It's why I still don't own Arkham, though I love it to bits and have played it countless times. For my copy to feel complete, it would need at a minimum all the expansions I've played with elsewhere, probably all of them, period, and assuming I can find all of them in print, that's a several hundred dollar proposition. Better to just buy Eldritch (as I did) and get in on the ground floor, I think. 

 

On a completely unrelated note, y'all should not only check out Capy's Below, but also Below.

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In general, I am all for games I like being a) expandable by design and b.) expanded like crazy, and I love how full of variety and specific thematic bits games like Arkham Horror and Sentinels of the Multiverse have gotten (it's one of my biggest criticisms of Eldritch Horror when regarded as a replacement for Arkham the way so many seem to, although we're already on announced expansion #2 for that, so I expect that will be changing rapidly). That said, as someone buying into a game that's already been out and accumulating additional content, it does end up being a bit of a turnoff. It's why I still don't own Arkham, though I love it to bits and have played it countless times. For my copy to feel complete, it would need at a minimum all the expansions I've played with elsewhere, probably all of them, period, and assuming I can find all of them in print, that's a several hundred dollar proposition. Better to just buy Eldritch (as I did) and get in on the ground floor, I think.

 

My friend just started with the base game of Arkham Horror, and how he's done it is that whenever he finds himself wishing aloud for a feature or character that is included in another expansion, he buys that expansion. So far, he has bought Dunwich Horror and nothing else. I don't have that discipline, though.

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The trick with Arkham Horror is that every expansion waters that game down, so they had to release an expansion that makes all the expansions work together.

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I would also love to know if video of the panel is avaialble. It would be so much fun to watch this episode.

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The trick with Arkham Horror is that every expansion waters that game down, so they had to release an expansion that makes all the expansions work together.

 

Even with that you still probably only want to use a couple at any given time. I'm thinking Eldritch shouldn't suffer from that particular issue given that they already have separate decks to handle all of the scenario-specific stuff and they decided to make other dimension encounters specific to the card you draw and not what gate is on the board.

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highlight of the episode was sean saying "fuuuuuck yoooouuuu" to the guy ignorantly saying firewatch looks just like gone home. no apology required sean, honestly. that was perfect

 

Not gonna lie... the first time I read a synopsis of Firewatch I thought Gone Home + wilderness as well. Narrative exploration game set in a retro timeline about a physically and emotionally isolated character exploring a real-world environment to solve a mystery... in Unity. Obviously there's much more to it than that, but if someone can find a third game that fits that description I want to play it. Now.

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I would also love to know if video of the panel is avaialble. It would be so much fun to watch this episode.

Unfortunately, no video was taken.

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Did anybody commit any part of it to vine? I was hoping that at least a few people would take you up on your suggestion.

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Not gonna lie... the first time I read a synopsis of Firewatch I thought Gone Home + wilderness as well. Narrative exploration game set in a retro timeline about a physically and emotionally isolated character exploring a real-world environment to solve a mystery... in Unity. Obviously there's much more to it than that, but if someone can find a third game that fits that description I want to play it. Now.

I believe that's the starting point the bombcast took with it as well, although I think they just used it as a starting point before describing other aspects. I totally understand bristling at the reductiveness of that statement though, after looking at a game for so long and putting so much into it. The whole thing did remind me of Sean calling Divinity: OS a Diablo, though, which is still pretty hilarious.

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I would also love to know if video of the panel is avaialble. It would be so much fun to watch this episode.

Still nothing as far as I could find. Oh well.

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Nobody taped it, at least not officially and not in any unofficial phone cam recording capacity that they told us about later.

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