Jake

Idle Thumbs 173: Ridonkulous Rift

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Yes, point to a game a "SJW" has censored.

I mean hell, point to a game anyone has censored (besides the German or Australian governments).

The anti-Zoe Quinn hate-game that Itch.io had to change it's policy for.

Edit: nevermind, it's still on Game Jolt.

Additional edit:

The Apple app-store regularly censors games of offensive content. Some may not consider it censorship because they could publish it elsewhere, but c'mon; if that's not censorship, what is?

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Yeah, but that's not SJW censorship, that's Apple.

 

Which goddamn reminds me that I had a really good devil's advocate argument for Apple's censorship policy and I forgot it.

 

(Also Left 4 Dead 2 got reclassified in Australia, so that's interesting. We've fucked with Valve so much.)

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Yeah, but that's not SJW censorship, that's Apple.

Which goddamn reminds me that I had a really good devil's advocate argument for Apple's censorship policy and I forgot it.

Does this one count? I think an argument could be made that this game was censored by Apple due to social-justice concerns.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/07/apple_bans_dutch_educational_g.php

Here's another one:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/854899

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Yeah, but that's not SJW censorship, that's Apple.

 

Which goddamn reminds me that I had a really good devil's advocate argument for Apple's censorship policy and I forgot it.

 

(Also Left 4 Dead 2 got reclassified in Australia, so that's interesting. We've fucked with Valve so much.)

 

I'd argue that the most high profile Apple app denials are the exact opposite of "SJW" censorship. Corporate censorship, ho!

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An "anti-[person] hate-game" sounds like hate speech, and would probably be taken down by most services regardless of it being involved in a conversation about "SJW"s.

(Also a private service like itch.io deciding to not host a game is not actually censorship, but that admittedly gets a little complicated when you start getting into near monopolistic platforms with one content gatekeeper like the App Store.)

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"Likewise, developers should be allowed to make the games they want without worry of censorship from outside forces."

 

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"Likewise, developers should be allowed to make the games they want without worry of censorship from outside forces."

 

Yeah, I can't decide if their inability to see the internet hate machine as the strongest force for censorship is an extreme lack of self-awareness or a deliberate attempt to troll. Or both.

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I haven't watched that Trololololo video in a while, thanks, Sean. It's a pretty ideal response to this.

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Greg Costikyan posted a blog entry on Gamasutra that got pulled for excessive profanity, but it can be found here.

 

Gamersgate: STFU by Greg Costikyan

"As a male voice in the game industry," writes my daughter Vicky, "you should speak out about this."

Ouch.

I wanted to hold my tongue. Because when I let loose, it usually does me no favors. But she’s right.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?

What do you think you’re defending? An industry in which greed-head executives make brain-dead games on a yearly basis that show little to no innovation from one title to the next? You fucking -want- Madden? And the next Call of Duty game, same as the last but with new content from hundreds of exploited drones working hours that destroy relationships because the suits think that’s what they want?

For decades, we had a market that catered to Maxim-reading horny boy-men who bought games by developers who spent man-years on developing better physics to make tits bounce in the next beach volleyball title. For decades, we had shameless manager jackasses who thought the best way to market their titles was to hire high-breasted bimbos to pose and giggle at their booths at E3.

For decades, we had the best creative minds of our industry SHUT DOWN whenever they proposed the slightest design innovation, because increasing budgets meant all design risk must be minimized.

For decades, we had no way for people who wanted to do anything creative be able to find any path to market.

Finally, finally, and thank god, we have a viable path of market for indies, and a way for people who want to express themselves through games that will never sell in the millions to find a market. And you find that a PROBLEM?

...

This is bullshit, you are assholes, and shut the fuck up.

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Would you guys like me record myself saying "Social Justice Warrior" in German using my iconic Ukrainian accent?

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An "anti-[person] hate-game" sounds like hate speech, and would probably be taken down by most services regardless of it being involved in a conversation about "SJW"s.

(Also a private service like itch.io deciding to not host a game is not actually censorship, but that admittedly gets a little complicated when you start getting into near monopolistic platforms with one content gatekeeper like the App Store.)

 

Yeah, the internet gets weird ideas in its head about censorship. We see this over and over again every time a comedian makes a horrible rape joke and gets called out for it, and other comedians rush to the offending comedian's defense with lines about how important it is not to censor anything. It seems like there is this confusion between government censorship and private censorship. Ironically, the First Amendment has a line that the government shall not prohibit people's right to assemble freely. Stated in plain language, the First Amendment explicitly enshrines the concept of private censorship.

 

One thread I've seen in the gamergate hashtag is equating these feminist critiques of sexism in games with critiques of violence in video games, and how if violent video games don't make people violent, surely sexist imagery in video games don't make people sexist. Set aside for a moment that these angry internet denizens typically deny that games are sexist at all, and set aside that violence is an action whereas sexism is a set of attitudes. I wish people would appreciate the difference between the actual critics being discussed. Because whereas there have been several actual efforts to lobby governments to restrict violence in video games, or the sale of such games to people, there has been no comparable effort on the part of feminist critics to try and lobby to restrict sexism in games. So I'm not sure where this idea of censorship is coming from other than from severe confusion.

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It went as far as people comparing Sarkeesian to Jack Thompson. I did what I could to point out the difference; Thompson argued the creation of behavior, and Sarkeesian argues the reinforcement of status quo / 'norms' when it comes to views of women as members of society. It's a pretty wide gulf in difference.

 

Of course, nobody listened.

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Would you guys like me record myself saying "Social Justice Warrior" in German using my iconic Ukrainian accent?

yas

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My two cents. Im long-time listener of 3MA and registered here then they moved in from Flash of Steel. Never really was a big fan of Idle Thumbs podcast. Didnt hated it either, this one is probable 2nd or 3rd episod i heard. Really didnt liked way hosts of show talked about people with opposing opinions, discussion in comments and admin behavior wasnt great either for my taste. I hope Rob and Troy will change their mind because i feell bad about giving clicks to this site.

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My two cents. Im long-time listener of 3MA and registered here then they moved in from Flash of Steel. Never really was a big fan of Idle Thumbs podcast. Didnt hated it either, this one is probable 2nd or 3rd episod i heard. Really didnt liked way hosts of show talked about people with opposing opinions, discussion in comments and admin behavior wasnt great either for my taste. I hope Rob and Troy will change their mind because i feell bad about giving clicks to this site.

Personal opinion aside, there's no ad revenue on the site itself. Why do the clicks even matter?

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My two cents. Im long-time listener of 3MA and registered here then they moved in from Flash of Steel. Never really was a big fan of Idle Thumbs podcast. Didnt hated it either, this one is probable 2nd or 3rd episod i heard. Really didnt liked way hosts of show talked about people with opposing opinions, discussion in comments and admin behavior wasnt great either for my taste. I hope Rob and Troy will change their mind because i feell bad about giving clicks to this site.

 

Gormongous already answered, so yeah, don't feel bad about clicking on the site. Carry on enjoying 3MA and celebrate the fact that the opinions voiced by the Idle Thumbs guys - that you don't like or I imagine agree with - have helped run something that you like that they also like.

I think it is pretty cool that you come from opposing fields in this conversation (unless it is just that you didn't like the tone rather than the content if so I apologise for presuming) but you share a love of an uber-nerdy Strategy discussion.

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Would you guys like me record myself saying "Social Justice Warrior" in German using my iconic Ukrainian accent?

 

I second it - would be amusing on the podcast too.

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Really didnt liked way hosts of show talked about people with opposing opinions, discussion in comments and admin behavior wasnt great either for my taste. I hope Rob and Troy will change their mind because i feell bad about giving clicks to this site.

 

You don't follow Rob or Troy on Twitter, do you?

 

https://twitter.com/RobZacny

 

https://twitter.com/TroyGoodfellow

 

Spoiler alert: you probably won't like how they "talk about people with opposing opinions" either in their tweets.

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I'm getting pretty tired of people conflating "opposing viewpoints," with "taking a stand against sexism and harassment and actual illegal-fucking-activity." 

 

One look at my twitter @ replies will elucidate the difference between "hey person, I think you're off base in when it comes to your opinion on sexism in games," and "hey person, stop telling my friend to kill herself."

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I can't believe people are still coming here and complaining about this shit when it's been definitively, empirically proven that all of this was a stunt pulled by a handful of misogynist assholes to trick people into making idiots out of themselves on their behalf.

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Having long ago exhausted the emotional wherewithal and perseverance required to deal meaningfully with truculently-nonintrospective internet people, I appreciate that others are yet up to the task.

 

I read through this thread soon after the podcast with a mind to say lots of stuff, but smarter people addressed the topic more eloquently than I could.

 

So, I guess: thanks for being good podcasters and a cool community. I don't participate here much because ~time~ but it's reassuring to know this place exists.

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Sean, apologies - I think I am guilty of said conflation - my original post was meant more as an olive branch similar to what Brett Douville:

 

https://storify.com/brett_douville/extending-the-branch

 

Also, worth a listen as it was interesting to hear people agree/disagree on the topic as well as force me to question my own bullshit (again):

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/podcasts/pax-panel-we-ve-survived-the-internet-and-so-can-y/1600-993/

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I know I'm like a week or more late to this discussion, but I just wanted to say that TFYC is clearly not an organization fighting for women in good faith. They've recently been updating their Tumblr, responding to questions asked by GG people, and have been saying some truly questionable shit -

 

They think that "the male gaze" doesn't exist.

 

They think that issues surrounding people who don't conform to gender are boring.

 

They effectively compared 4Chan to the Nazis, and then said that they would take money from the 4Chan Nazis even if Hitler was a part of them because they're trying to do a good thing.

 

They think it's okay that people just "don't care" about gender and race issues.

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Looking at those posts, I see a combination of ignorance and poor critical thinking.  Like, a woman director using zoom doesn't, or women enjoying particular types of TV/Film, doesn't somehow disprove the idea of the Male Gaze in film/television.  And not caring about race, gender, class or other privileges is a great idea, but it ignores the reality where those subjects constantly affect people all over the world. 

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