Jake

Idle Thumbs 173: Ridonkulous Rift

Recommended Posts

Anytime someone says, "historically accurate", what I hear is "presenting a view of history that matches with my view that has been shaped by my education and pop culture, no matter how terribly misinformed that is." 

 

Whatever you think you know of history, it's probably wrong in very important ways, even if you've tried to educate yourself from a variety of sources.

 

Edited to add: Remember when people said that the way gender was presented in LA Noire was historically accurate.  That was cute.  And wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So your argument isn't "Liking boobs on TV means you approve of daterape", it's just "Liking boobs on TV means you'd probably let a women get dateraped".

 

Please keep this style of "argument" off our forums. 'Kay?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please keep this style of "argument" off our forums. 'Kay?

Well, he's the one making that argument.  But alright.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay: blackface is a vaudeville trope. No-one does blackface any more because what is good about vaudeville doesn't require you to perpetuate vicious stereotypes about black people. Rockstar didn't need to tie a woman to a railroad track or make an anti-semitic shopkeeper, but they chose to perpetuate those tropes in 2012.

The context isn't just in-game, but in the environment the work was made and everything it draws from. If you're going to use the same old tropes to say 'hey, the West was nasty', you're also regurgitating the racism and sexism of earlier Westerns. There are people who can get away with it - Django Unchained was explicitly trying to make an old Western without the latent racism - but Rockstar aren't Tarantino no matter how much they wish they were.

 Yes, but remember that objectification of women is more widespread and more limiting. Men don't get objectified as often, and when they are they tend to be more varied.

 

I could go into a rant about black face, Amos and Andy and things like that (I'm black) but right now, I'll just concentrate on my point.

 

Although the blackface character is gone (as in white people playing stereotypes of blacks), the tropes created by it are still quite alive and well (now played by blacks).  BUT depending upon the context, I will either have a problem with it, or not.  I can't say just because the black character in the movie is acting silly, speaking slang-filled English, he's doing the "blackface" character.  What if he does something to break the trope elsewhere in the movie?  What if it turns out, he's a complex character who just likes to have fun sometimes?

 

Another Example: Both you (at least I am assuming by your statement about the movie above) and I liked Django Unchained.  I know quite a few people who consider that movie to be racist, offensive.  Some of them have NEVER seen the movie, just clips and are just going off what Spike Lee said...who also has never saw the movie.

 

In addition, there are a whole lot of people using the "N" word in the movie.  I hate the word and don't think anyone should use it (white or black).  Some people think Tarantino IS "regurgitating the racism" of the West and the South by using it and it should be stopped.  But should we pretend it didn't and doesn't exist?

 

What I'm trying to say is, I do realize there is a problem in games with women objectification, but that it is quite easy to take something out of context and say: "Hey, this objectifies women in games!" 

 

As for the racist storekeeper in RDR, I leave this article by Brainy Gamer:

http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_gamer/2010/05/im-your-huckleberry.html

 

(edit: for grammar and to remove something that didn't really relate to the main point...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you read his post?  That's the exact argument he's making.

 

I suggest you take his post in holistically, rather than pouncing on the first thing you read. And your response wasn't a continuation of the discussion, it was purely inflammatory. Please don't do it.

 

And, I have to be honest, While you're free to try to continue your argument, I don't think stuff like that wins you friends. Especially as a new poster in a very inclusive forum trying to make the point that misogyny isn't so bad, really.

 

Edit: and since you edited your post, let me point out that "but he started it!" has never won anyone an argument ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

rather than pouncing on the first thing you read. 

Given that I made other responses to other parts of his post, I think it should be fairly obvious that that's not what I did.

I suggest you take his post in holistically

*sigh* now I have to Google holistically.

Especially as a new poster

I'm not new.  I made a post in April.  It was about South Park or something...

 

>_< I..I..was trying to be funny...

And you succeeded.  But a thorough explanation of the joke will only increase people's enjoyment of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So your argument isn't "Liking boobs on TV means you approve of daterape", it's just "Liking boobs on TV means you'd probably let a women get dateraped".

 

Glad we cleared that up.

 

Yeah, I'm done with you.  You're basically down to strawmanning and negation, and I have a book to read and a bed that's calling me. Besides, there's someone far more interesting over here.

 

I could go into a rant about black face, Amos and Andy and things like that (I'm black) but right now, I'll just concentrate on my point.

 

Although the blackface character is gone (as in white people playing stereotypes of blacks), the tropes created by it are still quite alive and well (now played by blacks).  BUT depending upon the context, I will either have a problem with it, or not.  I can't say just because the black character in the movie is acting silly, speaking slang-filled English, he's doing the "blackface" character.  What if he does something to break the trope elsewhere in the movie?  What if it turns out, he's a complex character who just likes to have fun sometimes?

 

Another Example: Both you (at least I am assuming by your statement about the movie above) and I liked Django Unchained.  I know quite a few people who consider that movie to be racist, offensive.  Some of them have NEVER seen the movie, just clips and are just going off what Spike Lee said...who also has never saw the movie.

 

In addition, there are a whole lot of people using the "N" word in the movie.  I hate the word and don't think anyone should use it (white or black).  Some people think Tarantino IS "regurgitating the racism" of the West and the South and it should be stopped.  But should we pretend it didn't and doesn't exist?

Not at all; Tarantino can't be blamed too much for the racism he didn't have a handle on, I think it's fair to give him points for trying and it's damned hard to make something that's devoid of all racism when it comes from a culture that has unexamined racism in its history. I don't think all racism is created equal, and we could be here all day if we wanted to classify every single instance of unexamined racism in culture and no-one's got that kind of time.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I do realize there is a problem in games with women objectification, but that it is quite easy to take something out of context and say: "Hey, this objectifies women in games!"  (A female friend of mine has been said to be "brainwashed by the misogynistic majority" for saying she didn't find something offensive that others found horrible.  And I have been called an "Uncle Tom" more than once.)

I remember being told once that it's racist to think twerking is kinda dumb.

So here's the thing that crystallised it for me; this video of a speech by Irish drag queen Panti Bliss:

The bit at the end opened my eyes, where she talks about how she, noted gay person and drag queen, is homophobic, as is the audience and everyone, and of course they are because how could they not be? In a society that is still grappling with homophobia, it's unavoidable that at least a little is going to rub off on everyone. It's a great watch, highly recommended.

It's the same thing with racism and sexism; we're still grappling with it, and a little is going to rub off on everyone.

I think it's possible to misrepresent something by taking it out of context, whether it's sexism or otherwise. I don't think Anita does that, because she's careful to explain why she chose the clips she chose and what larger point she's trying to make. Identifying sexism is tricky because we're not used to seeing it, so part of engaging with the videos is sitting back, assuming it's true, and then seeing where that assumption leads; does it lead to a mess of contradictions, or does it lead to a viewpoint that's mostly internally consistent?

 

Anyway, I'm going to bed, but good talk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Man, this episode was great. Totally to get there was gonna be a social justice warrior song when the elevator ad music started playing though. Bummed.

I am kind of torn between wanting to hear Danielle talk about some of this and also realizing that she might be fucking tired of talking about this. Hope she's back next week, regardless!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although the blackface character is gone (as in white people playing stereotypes of blacks), the tropes created by it are still quite alive and well (now played by blacks).  BUT depending upon the context, I will either have a problem with it, or not.  I can't say just because the black character in the movie is acting silly, speaking slang-filled English, he's doing the "blackface" character.  What if he does something to break the trope elsewhere in the movie?  What if it turns out, he's a complex character who just likes to have fun sometimes?

[...]

What I'm trying to say is, I do realize there is a problem in games with women objectification, but that it is quite easy to take something out of context and say: "Hey, this objectifies women in games!" 

The context is irrelevant because the point is that the trope is ubiquitous and limiting, not that any particular example embodying a trope is the worst thing.  Women are sexy/victims. Black people are villains/comic relief.  It tells the world that these are the types of boxes these types of people need to fit into, which has real-world repercussions, but probably most critically if you want art to be interesting, it's fucking boring.  Seeing Stock Lady Character A and Stock Black Character B and just rearranged in different positions in hundreds of pieces of media is the most dull thing.  There are certainly places where they can be executed well, or used to subvert expectations, or places where you could make the argument that the character is not in fact a Stock Character despite exhibiting some of the same characteristics, but the issue is the ubiquity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I deleted the post and account this may seem context-less, but as a warning for The Future™... I've pretty much got a no-tolerance policy for folks who want to register to post their breakdown of the Zoe Quinn "conspiracy". Seriously, it's like one click for me to ban you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm done with you.  You're basically down to strawmanning and negation, and I have a book to read and a bed that's calling me. Besides, there's someone far more interesting over here.

If you really want me to give your argument more of a response then I thought it warrented, then fine.

 

Moreover, it's the same initial assumption, the same programming, responsible for both 'Game of Thrones is gritty and realistic, it's probably fine we see lots of boobs and not many dicks' and 'it's probably fine that he's taking her home while she's barely able to walk'. It is an underlying assumption of our culture that leaks out in a thousand ways.

I think that your assertion that "what would cause a person who is fundamentally against date-rape to allow one to occur" is a result of some sort of ingrained societal misogyny can be far more easily explained as a simple desire to avoid confrontation.

 

Lots of people don't speak out against things that bother them, not because society has convinced them that it's okay, but because they don't wish to be involved in the resulting conflict.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since I deleted the post and account this may seem context-less, but as a warning for The Future™... I've pretty much got a no-tolerance policy for folks who want to register to post their breakdown of the Zoe Quinn "conspiracy". Seriously, it's like one click for me to ban you.

And boy do I appreciate that. I saw the post before it was deleted. Blech.

 

...

 

Merus plz be anime again I don't know who you are. (This must be how it feels for everyone else when I change my avatar.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given that I made other responses to other parts of his post, I think it should be fairly obvious that that's not what I did.

*sigh* now I have to Google holistically.

I'm not new.  I made a post in April.  It was about South Park or something...

 

And you succeeded.  But a thorough explanation of the joke will only increase people's enjoyment of it.

 

I suggest you take his post in holistically, rather than pouncing on the first thing you read. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of people don't speak out against things that bother them, not because society has convinced them that it's okay, but because they don't wish to be involved in the resulting conflict.

 

That attitude displays such a profound inability to empathize with others. The option to not get involved is a luxury that is only available to those who are not directly affected by an issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The context is irrelevant because the point is that the trope is ubiquitous and limiting, not that any particular example embodying a trope is the worst thing.  Women are sexy/victims. Black people are villains/comic relief.  It tells the world that these are the types of boxes these types of people need to fit into, which has real-world repercussions, but probably most critically if you want art to be interesting, it's fucking boring.  Seeing Stock Lady Character A and Stock Black Character B and just rearranged in different positions in hundreds of pieces of media is the most dull thing.  There are certainly places where they can be executed well, or used to subvert expectations, or places where you could make the argument that the character is not in fact a Stock Character despite exhibiting some of the same characteristics, but the issue is the ubiquity.

 

Oh I agree with you that tropes can be limiting, ubiquitous, and it can be very dull. 

 

However, I think without context, it is super equal easy to take characters and shove them into tropes because they fit some of the qualities of said trope.  Does every women who gets kidnapped is a Stock lady Character A trope?  Does every character who is black and a villain Stock black Character B?

 

In an old cartoon, Dragon Warrior (a.k.a Dragon Quest in Japan), the main hero's girlfriend gets (stop me if you have heard this one before) kidnapped.  Now I could cut out the kidnapping out of the story at this point in time and it becomes Stock lady Character 5342344234234234234234242 trope.

However, if you continue to watch the show, she escapes on her own, using her cleverness and then it becomes a story about two character searching for each other.

 

Could the author do something clever and different with the characters and avoid the whole kidnapping thing?  Sure!  Does this mean because they used the kidnapping subplot, it automatically makes the story bad?  In my opinion, it doesn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In an old cartoon, Dragon Warrior (a.k.a Dragon Quest in Japan)

I loved that cartoon as a kid.  It sucked that they never brought more than 13 episodes to America.  I kept hoping each time they got to Najima Tower that there'd be a new episode the next week, but nope.  Back to the start...

That attitude displays such a profound inability to empathize with others. The option to not get involved is a luxury that is only available to those who are not directly affected by an issue. 

And I completely agree with that.  I am in NO WAY suggesting that that sort of inaction is okay, or that that reasoning excuses that behavior.

 

I'm simply arguing against Merus' stated reasoning for why people do it.  I don't think the cause is the same thing he does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That attitude displays such a profound inability to empathize with others. The option to not get involved is a luxury that is only available to those who are not directly affected by an issue. 

I wouldn't go that far! It certainly can be a lack of empathy, but it doesn't have to be. It could just as easily be fear of conflict or social anxiety or any other number of factors. I know this because I speak from experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Popped into the conversation for a few points: one, to echo Doug, both on his ban policy and to add that fiery rhetoric -- and I'm including those who more or less agree with the things on the cast, needs to be kept in check because it's a spring board to really worthless conversation.

 

Secondly, my opinion of Red Dead did not change -- Anita's video was a reminder that, in addition to all of Anita's excellent points in her video, the homogenous and pervasive and shear tonnage of the *same* violence is really gross and boring.  Anita's point is that the violence in these games IS either totally contextless or designer window dressing to get the player to do a thing. Think about that for a second and it's pretty gross.

 

Three, you can't compare violence against women in games to violence against women in other media because context matters and 99% of the execution of this trope in games is conceived of and implemented thoughtlessly, artlessly and meaninglessly.  Instances of worthless and manipulative violence against women in film *is* attacked the same way except it can be handled on a case by case basis because it is, unlike games, not perpetrated in the majority of its content.

 

@yarbles

Four, Aliens Colonial Marines is sitting at a 40 on Metacritic. If you have an issue with PREVIEW culture --especially at the major publisher level-- in games "journalism" you absolutely should but it is not to be conflated with the accusations of tit-for-tat corruption being leveled at Indie Devs who, I in almost all cases, make very little money every to begin with. This is exactly what Chris was saying in terms of the type of "journalism" you should actually be worried about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never seen someone even come close to using that gif appropriately here.  Well done. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything that has happened over the past fortnight regarding social justice warriors and journalistic integrity has reminded me at how terrible Twitter (and other social avenues) is at actually stringing together a narrative of what the heck is going on. One person @replies another and everyone loses their shit over it, but I completely miss it because I don't follow the right people. Stephen Totilo defends his writer but does it though a series of 7 tweets, a couple of which I accidentally read in reverse order because it feels natural to read down even though Twitter works the other way. Reddit says this. 4Chan says that. Someone makes a fake Feminist Frequency Youtube video and account that goes around on the same day as the real one. Phil Fish is back publicly again, but then he's not again suddenly...

 

At some point (and I'm sure this attitude isn't helping) I just have to give up, the internet is such a confusing mess at times (all times really). I just can't be bothered piecing it all together like a detective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now