Jake

Idle Thumbs 173: Ridonkulous Rift

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It's so nuts that people took the ex at face value when the combination of "anonymous 4chan post" and "ex-boyfriend" is maybe the least reliable source possible (and was at least partially proven to be demonstrably false, as stated on the podcast). I mean, I consider myself pretty honest, and even I think you probably shouldn't take anything that I say about my ex at face value.

 

 

Also, while I appreciate you guys talking about the whole thing head-on*, even if it means we now have at least three threads on here about this.

 

 

*I'm honestly a bit sad that the Bombcast hasn't. I know they're not obligated to by any means, and probably don't feel like walking into a minefield like that, but Giant Bomb was founded to escape actual journalistic corruption. I feel like maybe that confers a certain social responsibility. On the other hand...

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goddammit I hate changing avatars

 

it wasn't even technically anime

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One last really stupid thing I wanted to mention, regarding Jake's Luigi spin-off house party thing.

 

 

Has anyone else here ever seen the theatrical Mickey Mouse short "Runaway Brain," from like 1995 or so? It was an attempt to use Mickey Mouse in a darker, weirder, edgier story than usual. It was Disney's first classic-style theatrical cartoon short in decades and then they never did one again until something like a year ago. See if you can guess why.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vDoWoePKPg

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goddammit I hate changing avatars

 

it wasn't even technically anime

 

Never give up the anime avatar!

 

Seriously though, I'm always a little irked when people focus on the fedoras or the avatars or the neckbeards as the defining feature of this particular subgroup, as opposed to their rampant and overweening misogyny. I know it's really just because we get tired of saying the word "misogyny" over and over, but I also kinda like staying on message.

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I'm not giving up my avatar for three reasons.

 

First, I don't want to associate something broad and expansive with something so negative and ugly. It brings the whole thing down to a childish level to act on seriously. Sure it's funny to point out, but come on.

 

Second, I don't have my own computer anyway and don't have Photoshop access to work around with making a new one.

 

Third, the Etrian Odyssey games rule, eff the haters!

 

Edit - Wait, are the angry guys using anime avatars of girls or guys?

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Edit - Wait, are the angry guys using anime avatars of girls or guys?

I've noticed more girl avatars than guys, but it's probably indiscriminate. I think I just remember more girl avatars because of the extra mental effort of 'wait, is this a girl saying this misogynist shit? oh, wait, right'

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Third, the Etrian Odyssey games rule, eff the haters!

Truer words were never spoken.

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Never give up the anime avatar!

 

Seriously though, I'm always a little irked when people focus on the fedoras or the avatars or the neckbeards as the defining feature of this particular subgroup, as opposed to their rampant and overweening misogyny. I know it's really just because we get tired of saying the word "misogyny" over and over, but I also kinda like staying on message.

 

Yeah, but there's something to be said for being aware of otherwise arbitrary social conventions. Men wear a suit to go to a job interview not because it's necessary to wear a suit to be interviewed, but to signify mostly that you're aware of the convention. Men who don't follow that convention despite it being fairly well known may not be aware of other, more important social conventions like turning up to work on time, showering, or being respectful to others. They're the brown M&M riders of social discourse.

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Yeah, but there's something to be said for being aware of otherwise arbitrary social conventions. Men wear a suit to go to a job interview not because it's necessary to wear a suit to be interviewed, but to signify mostly that you're aware of the convention. Men who don't follow that convention despite it being fairly well known may not be aware of other, more important social conventions like turning up to work on time, showering, or being respectful to others. They're the brown M&M riders of social discourse.

 

I guess...? I tend to call those people out for being unkempt and rude, not for failing to wear a suit though. It behooves me to go at least one step deeper. And honestly, I'm really just more surprised to hear people look down on anime avatars while on a video games forum, considering that both are mediums typically judged as stupid and childish.

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For those still wondering what is being talked about, I found this article to give a helpful comprehensive overview: http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/26/video-games-misogyny-and-terrorism-a-guide-to-assholes

(Obviously biased and obviously political, for your convenience.)

I have a pretty similar opinion to that of the author and thought that article did a good job of summarizing most of it. I think that article going up last night is why a bunch of film/non-games geek culture people (Joss Whedon, Rian Johnson, Nail Gaiman etc) posted tweets of support for Feminist Frequency this morning.

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I'd just like to say that my earlier comment was just an offhand reflection on an observed commonality among these misogynist jerks on twitter (that if they weren't the defaul egg avatar, they were 2/3 or more likely to be anime avatars). I've nothing against anime, heck, I'll take Cat Soup and Paranoia Agent over any Western animation I can think of off the top of my head at the moment.

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Never give up the anime avatar!

 

Seriously though, I'm always a little irked when people focus on the fedoras or the avatars or the neckbeards as the defining feature of this particular subgroup, as opposed to their rampant and overweening misogyny. I know it's really just because we get tired of saying the word "misogyny" over and over, but I also kinda like staying on message.

 

I gave up my fedora because of the association.  I miss my fedora, I really liked it.  But I can't remember the last time I saw someone I genuinely liked and respected wear one, it's almost always tools and asshole (who don't even know how to pick a hat that fits their head or body well, which makes it worse).  Now when I need or want a hat, I've got a western, gambler style wide brim I use.  In the midwest, it's something I can get away with in both formal and informal situations. 

 

Edited to add: I also find people changing forum avatars so disorienting.  I almost never look at names. 

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This was super cathartic to listen to. Thanks for being rad dudes.

 

*I'm honestly a bit sad that the Bombcast hasn't. I know they're not obligated to by any means, and probably don't feel like walking into a minefield like that, but Giant Bomb was founded to escape actual journalistic corruption. I feel like maybe that confers a certain social responsibility. On the other hand...

Yeah. I'm guessing that they've avoided direct comment on at least the Zoe situation to try to respect Patrick's fairly definitive statement, but they've all been vocal enough on twitter and whatnot about where they stand on this to the point where they might as well just get on the record.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised if something doesn't come up at PAX (if only via some idiot trying to accuse them of something during the Q&A on their panel).

 

The numbers weren't that much better when I did the survey here, sadly.

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For those still wondering what is being talked about, I found this article to give a helpful comprehensive overview: http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/26/video-games-misogyny-and-terrorism-a-guide-to-assholes

(Obviously biased and obviously political, for your convenience.)

 

Wait, the diverted flight from earlier was because of shitheads making bomb threats about the plane because the president of SOE was on it?  I saw the headline about it being diverted earlier, but hadn't seen anything else on it. 

 

That piece is also terrific. 

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One last really stupid thing I wanted to mention, regarding Jake's Luigi spin-off house party thing.

 

 

Has anyone else here ever seen the theatrical Mickey Mouse short "Runaway Brain," from like 1995 or so? It was an attempt to use Mickey Mouse in a darker, weirder, edgier story than usual. It was Disney's first classic-style theatrical cartoon short in decades and then they never did one again until something like a year ago. See if you can guess why.

 

If you haven't watched this you should because at one point Mickey shotgun cocks a window wiper.

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The sad thing about this Zoe Quinn stuff is I actually thought some serious ethics had been breached at first, because if you read what had been posted people were saying that Zoe Quinn was having sexual relations with Nathan Grayson in exchange for a good review and other positive coverage, and assuming that homework had been done, at this point a couple days after it all came out, I believed it.

Then when I looked into it a little more I realized that was completely made up. People are so threatened, and angry, and ready to lash out at those people they preceive to be "attacking" so called traditional gaming that they will both completely make up false allegations and then on the flip side of that coin be wholly ready to accept these accusations without looking into the matter any deeper than a forum post.

I have resolved to stay 100% out of these types of topics in the future, just like talking about religion and politics with friends and family, just don't do it unless you know that you both watch the same cable news network.

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The first 45 minutes of this 'cast are why I love you guys. The whole situation's had me on edge for the past week, too, and I haven't even had to deal the number of idiots that Chris has, let alone the volume that Zoe and Anita have had to deal with for months/years now. I've just been reading the things those guys have been saying, and getting more and more angry and frustrated. Because not doing so feels somehow socially irresponsible, like I need to remind myself how bad things actually are.

 

On a more positive note, Olly's Social Justice Warrior shirt design is fantastic, and I am totally down for reclaiming the term by wearing it on my body.

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Not really a joke, but I chuckled when they were describing how the Oculus Rift works and it turns out "your neck is your neck."

 

And I'm like "whoa, it is."

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A subset of the ‘discussion’, if you can call it that, over the last week or so is the ethics of Patreon and games journalists directly supporting the people they cover. I’m not sure where I land on this – does anyone have any thoughts either way?

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There was no tangible connection between the events and I totally condemn the actions of these numpties spreading their bile, but they are latching on to the fact there’s something not right with this symbiotic relationship between press and Devs/Publisher PR, it's not quite the utopia that Chris painted it out to be.

 

Let’s take Aliens Colonial Marines as an example, now I can’t think of a Dev with more connections to the press than Gearbox Software through friendships or as former employees and yet the usual 6 month pre-launch cycle of reworded PR bullet points and pre-view puff pieces were never fact checked, challenged or questioned by those sites who had access to so called dev networking contacts.

All a lot of people are asking for is a little healthy scepticism and some transparency and not the pre-defined cycle of reworded PR BS like “Believe the hype” from likes of IGN.

 

Now on to the subject of Anita Sarkeesian, she has some fair points, but I think if I was an American and I had that platform I’d be more troubled about the 23 million US households that need food stamps to survive rather than this.

That would be true social justice not this video game related middle class navel gazing.

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Just want to jump in and say the first 45 minutes of this podcast have been fucking incredible (I just got to the elevator music). A great summation of all this horrible shite. 

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After listening to Sean's statements about the latest Anita Sarkeesian video, I'd like to respond to why I think his opinion changed about Red Dead Redemption.

 

One reason why you felt differently about the women and bar random event in Red Dead Redemption when you experienced it in the game versus Anita's video is an important thing which Anita's videos never provide: context.

 

In RDR, you'd be riding through the world and might run into a store robber, a dude being hung in a tree, a wounded lawman who was shot by outlaws, cannibals and other horrible stuff.  This paints a picture that the world is a horrible place and bad things can happen at anytime.  In the context of the game, you thought the event was a horrible thing and shot the guy who did the horrible deed: A.K.A. "Old West Justice" trope.  Be it good or bad, RDR also plays off a lot of the established tropes in the western genre: The west is a horrible, lawless place, and a strong person with a gun is the only law.

 

However, if you take all scenes of violence against women, put them back to back in a video without any context, the result is perdictably gross, horrible, and most importantly, boring, because you have no investment in that world or the story anymore.

 

If you remove context from anything, you can change the meaning of that thing completely.

 

For example:

  • I could make a super cut of Quentin Tarantino films with all the white characters using the "n-word" and say "Look, he's the biggest racist on the planet." (I have no problem with Tarantino at all...)
  • I've seen someone show only the walking around in Gone Home without picking up any of the amazing and detailed world building items or going into the story at all and say: "See, it's a walking simulator...NOT GAME!" (I love Gone Home!)
  • I've seen people take ever instance of a demon or monster appearing in a ton of kid cartoons and say: "Look! Kids cartoons lead you to Satan, by making Satan cool!" (I grew up watching a lot of these cartoons and still have not sacrficed anything...)

Am I saying that there isn't a problem with the way females in games are portrayed?  Nope. 

Does this make all her points invalid?  Nope.

 

What I am saying is keep in mind that you are seeing everything out of context in her videos, with her as the narrator.  Some of the examples may not be as bad as all that with the context provided by the overall game, the tone, and the story.  I usually side with lazy writing, and trope crutches used for 1000s of years in books, plays, movies, and TV.

 

But either way, women death screams can be really gross!

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