Jump to content
JonCole

"Ethics and Journalistic Integrity"

Recommended Posts

It was on the topic of crude 'joke' made by KS backer, strongly hinting of trans-phobia, in Pillar of Eternity.  And I don't recall TB actually made statements that are trans-phobic in and of itself, the problem is that contextually it is just really... 'dense' to put it kindly.

 

Like people got upset at the 'joke' and on one end there was a petition I believe to get that 'joke' removed.  TB then said something along the line of "I support devs right to put those fictional characters in a game".  I mean purely theoratically speaking, yes, I get that fictional world can contain villains who does heinous things without it reflecting poorly on the author's own moral compass because, well, they are designed to be hated and whatnot and it's part of plot device (like, would anyone serious claim that Ed Boon is some sick bastard for creating MK? maybe but probably not most of us).  But that response is 'dense' (again, putting it kindly) because it serves no real purpose and is just... hitting too close (same way perhaps most modern mil shooters may be to those living in, say, Syria) to real shit people deal with (unlike say, MK).

 

I'll put the gist of the 'joke' in spoiler

Basically it's piece of lore that says some dude slept with a woman, found out she was a man, then committed suicide cause of that revelation.

 

Edit: Fixed a really embarrassing typo concerning gender pronoun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If he was misled into sleeping with a man it is entirely possible that you could actually claim this man was a rape victim, for instance"(~4:30)

So, less strongly stated than I may have implied. of course, this is after repeatedly referring to the transwoman he had sex with as a man, so, uh. Moreover, he's pulling the whole 'developer freedom' schtick in regard to some flavor text that was put in by a kickstarter backer, so he's kind of fundamentally barking up the wrong tree here, as well as being a massive cockbag in the process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One related note though I don't think the TB is trans-phobic and I don't think it does anyone any favor when that word is just flung at anyone at first possible opportunity.  For those of you who followed Starcraft 2 might know a pro-gamer "Scarlett".  She is a transgender and as you can expect, gets slew of shit thrown at her from various anonymous commentors.  I've seen him personally moderate the shitheads out of chatroom (and addressing them specifically that those behaviors were not tolerated) that were constantly spamming transphobic slurs about her., and every interaction between the two seem to be one with respect (I think she is the only 'foreigner' to have stayed at such location, which is a huge boon as you can really really good training opportunity) and no BS shenanigans.  Now I get that being nice to one person doesn't create immunity, but neither does one questionable (and I say this because I can see where the concern about censorship is coming from(even if some of you may think that reasoning is troll-ish)) incident regarding the topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone has some measure of this shit in them, but what counts is how you handle it when you fuck up, and he never handles it well, because he doesn't believe he can fuck up. He's actively contributing to the narrative of the deceptive trans woman, a narrative which has a pretty tall body count associated with it, and he isn't apologizing because he doesn't fucking apologize. Ever,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First off, it's trans woman and a transgender person. No one is "a transgender" (just like you wouldn't say "a gay") and no one "flings that at anyone at the first possible opportunity." Total Biscuit is flogging a contrary opinion on the subject because he can, but this isn't a "ALL OR NOTHING" thing either. If you say something transphobic, then it is saying something transphobic. Don't make it this "well what is deep in his essential character" because that's not really what this is about. If you do or say transphobic things, you're being transphobic. TotalBiscuit (for whatever reason) is supporting the idea that it is rape if a trans woman "doesn't disclose" that she's a man (which SHES NOT), and guess what, that's a fundamental idea behind trans panic laws (A person has the right to "defend themselves" against a trans person due to it being "deceptive.")

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone has some measure of this shit in them, but what counts is how you handle it when you fuck up, and he never handles it well, because he doesn't believe he can fuck up. He's actively contributing to the narrative of the deceptive trans woman, a narrative which has a pretty tall body count associated with it, and he isn't apologizing because he doesn't fucking apologize. Ever,

 

Fair point.

 

First off, it's trans woman and a transgender person. No one is "a transgender" (just like you wouldn't say "a gay") and no one "flings that at anyone at the first possible opportunity." Total Biscuit is flogging a contrary opinion on the subject because he can, but this isn't a "ALL OR NOTHING" thing either. If you say something transphobic, then it is saying something transphobic. Don't make it this "well what is deep in his essential character" because that's not really what this is about. If you do or say transphobic things, you're being transphobic. TotalBiscuit (for whatever reason) is supporting the idea that it is rape if a trans woman "doesn't disclose" that she's a man (which SHES NOT), and guess what, that's a fundamental idea behind trans panic laws (A person has the right to "defend themselves" against a trans person due to it being "deceptive.")

 

Apologies on misuse of gender pronouns.  That was a fuck up on my end.

 

I didn't say what he said would get a free pass.  It's not the "what he said was transphobic" that I wanted to address, but rather the "he IS transphobic" type of statement.  And I get that behavior is what defines a person, but not every single behavior defines the person as a whole.  I lied, you lied, we all lied at some point in our lives, but we don't go "but hey you are a liar" to each other all day cause yeah, we fuck up sometimes and we get it.

 

Maybe he did cross that threshold of 'common mistake' ground, and maybe it's just me here who is unable see that.  But that's where I'm viewing this from so apologies if all this came off too flame-baity as that is not my intention.

 

Edit 1: Also, this might be a big deal but I did NOT listen to the soundcloud yet, I was basing this off his twitter feed alone.  Going to listen to that now cause it looks like he said some weirder stuff in there.

 

Edit 2: Oh dang he does go really really off in there :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't say what he said would get a free pass.  It's not the "what he said was transphobic" that I wanted to address, but rather the "he IS transphobic" type of statement.

 

I mean I kind of think that everyone's transphobic, everyone's racist, everyone's sexist, etc, because we're all the product of a racist, sexist, transphobic culture. It's a question of degree and of how much work we put into trying to improve that aspect of ourselves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe that's how you are but I'm perfect and I never make mistakes and if you think I have well fuck you I'm better than you anyway look at how many people pay attention to me and not you nyah nyah.

 

i fucking hate this guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 didn't say what he said would get a free pass.  It's not the "what he said was transphobic" that I wanted to address, but rather the "he IS transphobic" type of statement.  And I get that behavior is what defines a person, but not every single behavior defines the person as a whole.

 

Yeah, but it's like being an asshole. You might have done something assholish, and someone might describe you as an asshole at that moment, but to reach a permanent state of assholishness you have to embrace your asshole behaviour. TB is owning his transphobic behaviour, and based on experience we know he's not going to suddenly decide he needs to apologise or feel shame, therefore he's transphobic.

 

(I figured I should look up if gay and trans panic are accepted defences in Australia. Turns out we got rid of them relatively recently.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean I kind of think that everyone's transphobic, everyone's racist, everyone's sexist, etc, because we're all the product of a racist, sexist, transphobic culture. It's a question of degree and of how much work we put into trying to improve that aspect of ourselves.

 

Yeah, but it's like being an asshole. You might have done something assholish, and someone might describe you as an asshole at that moment, but to reach a permanent state of assholishness you have to embrace your asshole behaviour. TB is owning his transphobic behaviour, and based on experience we know he's not going to suddenly decide he needs to apologise or feel shame, therefore he's transphobic.

 

(I figured I should look up if gay and trans panic are accepted defences in Australia. Turns out we got rid of them relatively recently.)

 

I listened to the soundcloud and yeek, he really goes in there.  So yeah, you guys were probably right that combine that with his unapologetic behavior I'm probably going way too lenient on the guy and way too strict on those who criticize him for that.

 

Maybe that's how you are but I'm perfect and I never make mistakes and if you think I have well fuck you I'm better than you anyway look at how many people pay attention to me and not you nyah nyah.

 

i fucking hate this guy

 

Oh Twig, you never disappoint :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit: Bleh, nevermind. I was just vocalizing to myself, this post doesn't contribute anything. Sounds like the right thing will be done - neither the devs nor the backer agree that the transphobic stuff should be in the game, so I'm optimistic that it'll be removed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I agree with pretty much all that. The thing is, a lot of people seem to have interpreted the right to free speech as meaning that somehow speech is harmless, in a sticks and stones kind of way, when it's quite the opposite. Like, the right to free speech and the right to bear arms are a lot more similar than I think most people give them credit for: Premised on the idea, not that these rights can't be abused, because they absolutely will be, but that if its put in the governments hands to determine who gets those rights and who doesn't then the people themselves have lost control over the system and will inevitably become oppressed. Speech isn't free because it's harmless, speech is free because it's powerful, and a powerful responsibility, and we're supposed to be mindful enough of that responsibility to keep from hurting others as best as we are able, even as we are expected to be with weapons.

 

This isn't to get into a whole pro-gun spiel or anything because that's not really what I believe in, just to point out that free speech is as powerful and dangerous as a loaded weapon and protected for similar reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am glad that someone else is making that point, although these days I prefer to approach the issue in terms of public participation, to draw a line between hate speech and strategic defamation lawsuits. Someone is using a legal tool to threaten others, to make them fearful to speak. I have had more than enough 'but more speech is better because marketplace of ideas' arguments for one lifetime.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting discussion about nature of free speech and more I think about it, I was way off on censorship angle and kinda regretting the fact that I considered it as valid concern to this.  This is just... too far off that 'free speech' concerns shouldn't even kick in cause it's nothing more than company responding to civil feedback.  Like if people threatened Paradox with legal actions or violence or banning of the material then certainly, but this is same as any other criticism or disapproval.

 

Edit: Actually there is censorship angle which is the threat that people complaining about that Batgirl cover recieved... not sure if anyone was threatened over PoE though, just seem to be lot of yelling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One related note though I don't think the TB is trans-phobic and I don't think it does anyone any favor when that word is just flung at anyone at first possible opportunity.  For those of you who followed Starcraft 2 might know a pro-gamer "Scarlett".  She is a transgender and as you can expect, gets slew of shit thrown at her from various anonymous commentors.  I've seen him personally moderate the shitheads out of chatroom (and addressing them specifically that those behaviors were not tolerated) that were constantly spamming transphobic slurs about her., and every interaction between the two seem to be one with respect (I think she is the only 'foreigner' to have stayed at such location, which is a huge boon as you can really really good training opportunity) and no BS shenanigans.  Now I get that being nice to one person doesn't create immunity, but neither does one questionable (and I say this because I can see where the concern about censorship is coming from(even if some of you may think that reasoning is troll-ish)) incident regarding the topic.

He might have been under orders or a watchful eye to do so. It's hard to go, "WELL ACTUALLY" in the presence of someone actually there. That's part of what makes TB a frustrating piece of crap; he will gladly behave this way on his own or surrounded by allies, but surrounded by other people he will surrender immediately, temporarily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He might have been under orders or a watchful eye to do so. It's hard to go, "WELL ACTUALLY" in the presence of someone actually there. That's part of what makes TB a frustrating piece of crap; he will gladly behave this way on his own or surrounded by allies, but surrounded by other people he will surrender immediately, temporarily.

 

He wasn't. Honestly, Scarlett in the SC2 community has been a fascinating example of the gaming community self-policing. Some early jokes came out at her expense, but then it seemed like the entire community came out to say "That shit isn't fucking cool", and in a few months dried up. It helped that Scarlett didn't really take part in 'the community', however, so she had no means of stirring the pot merely by existing, so that's less credit to it.

 

But regardless, no, the community actually was surprisingly supportive there, even TB included.

 

I don't think TB hates trans people. I think he just is in a place of mixture between not giving a shit about the subtleties of trans culture, and having a fanbase that needs stoking to maintain activity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think TB hates trans people. I think he just is in a place of mixture between not giving a shit about the subtleties of trans culture, and having a fanbase that needs stoking to maintain activity.

 

I'm sure he doesn't actively think, "I hate trans people." But he did release a 15 minute rant explaining how all trans people are rapists unless they confess to TB's satisfaction that their whole life is a life. So, I would say how he feels deep down in his heart of hearts is really neither here nor there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure he doesn't actively think, "I hate trans people." But he did release a 15 minute rant explaining how all trans people are rapists unless they confess to TB's satisfaction that their whole life is a life. So, I would say how he feels deep down in his heart of hearts is really neither here nor there. 

 

Oh, he's definitely blown a mountain out of a molehill here, but I mean the whole damn thing is effectively an instant study in feeling very passionate about something you don't know a lot about.

 

  • None of the original posters with this seem to feel that this colors their impression of the game very much.
  • The person who mentioned it to Sawyer just asked if he'd seen it.
  • Sawyer said they'd take a closer look.

So you've got TB, who doesn't understand any of that, outraged about that, which then causes him to go into a related rant that is ignorant of the dangers in transsexual life.

 

I agree with you that it's neither here or there, just what was in his heart of hearts did seem to become the focal point of conversation at the moment of my post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crux of the matter is that it's not relevant to the discussion whether or not TB is a decent guy way down inside. This is a very commonly discussed angle of racism, sexism, transphobia, etc. and it never fails to derail the conversation. The supposed personal attack of being accused of discriminatory language or action takes precedent over the discrimination itself, as if "hey, that's not cool" was anywhere near as hurtful as the stuff that comes out of these people's mouths.

 

It's not an unfair accusation. Despite the literal meaning of the word, transphobia doesn't take the form of being personally scared witless of trans folk so much as buying into and reinforcing cultural fear and prejudice (like that "trans as deception" thing, which banks on the idea that they really still belong to the gender they've been assigned at birth, whatever they themselves might think on the matter) similar to how sexism isn't a word we reserve for only violent misogyny or racism only for KKK level shit. Contributing to these systems is something we can all be a little guilty of. There's various degrees to it all, but that surface level expression of how you choose to carry yourself is certainly one of them, no matter what you're like deep inside. Actually, what bubbles up would seem a decent indicator of what's going on below, nay?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crux of the matter is that it's not relevant to the discussion whether or not TB is a decent guy way down inside. This is a very commonly discussed angle of racism, sexism, transphobia, etc. and it never fails to derail the conversation. The supposed personal attack of being accused of discriminatory language or action takes precedent over the discrimination itself, as if "hey, that's not cool" was anywhere near as hurtful as the stuff that comes out of these people's mouths.

 

It's not an unfair accusation. Despite the literal meaning of the word, transphobia doesn't take the form of being personally scared witless of trans folk so much as buying into and reinforcing cultural fear and prejudice (like that "trans as deception" thing, which banks on the idea that they really still belong to the gender they've been assigned at birth, whatever they themselves might think on the matter) similar to how sexism isn't a word we reserve for only violent misogyny or racism only for KKK level shit. Contributing to these systems is something we can all be a little guilty of. There's various degrees to it all, but that surface level expression of how you choose to carry yourself is certainly one of them, no matter what you're like deep inside. Actually, what bubbles up would seem a decent indicator of what's going on below, nay?

 

I understand that, but someone else directly put forth the question in their post.

 

I agree with everything that you said, however. But then again, you and I and everyone has the subconscious shit to varying levels. This isn't to needlessly equivocate- it's just why I try to focus specifically on what people do and discourage certain behavior there, instead of making a determination of people's real beliefs, especially when I feel like they probably just haven't given it a lot of thought(likely from a lack of situation, circumstance, or empathy).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really understand the value in differentiating "TB is a trans-insensitive person on the inside that performs transphobic public acts" and "TB is transphobic".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JonCole, on 31 Mar 2015 - 00:18, said:

I don't really understand the value in differentiating "TB is a trans-insensitive person on the inside that performs transphobic public acts" and "TB is transphobic".

Have you watched Jay Smooth's

It's only 3 minutes, but basically he makes a compelling argument that (even if you think someone is a racist), it's always more effective to address the "what they did conversation" rather than the "what they are conversation." I think most people have something like that in mind during this discussion. I know that this is what I had in mind, personally, when I suggested that whether or not TB hates trans people in his heart of hearts or has previously defended a trans person is irrelevant to his history of trans panic, including his most recent anti-trans screed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't, I'll check it out when I get home. But in regards to what you said, I guess I was agreeing that it's not really relevant if he's transphobic when he's got that aforementioned history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it's a quibble over semantics mostly because people will use the "what he IS" line of thought as a way of undermining what he did. I definitely think TB is being transphobic and that's all I care about. I do not give a shit if he's not really like that inside or whatever. He's a shitlord about so many things, it is exhausting. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×