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JonCole

"Ethics and Journalistic Integrity"

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I actually kind of agree with what you're saying here and I wish we could do a better job of fostering these kinds of discussions/debates instead of getting frustrated and talking down to the people that don't agree with the majority. I don't necessarily agree with some of the opposing opinions that you and others like Ninety-Three bring up but I appreciate hearing a different point of view and reading through the ensuing discussion.

 

 

It's very easy to sound or appear more aggressive than you feel in print versus voice, especially when just typing off the cuff.  I'm sure I'm guilty of that at times. 

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I actually kind of agree with what you're saying here and I wish we could do a better job of fostering these kinds of discussions/debates instead of getting frustrated and talking down to the people that don't agree with the majority. I don't necessarily agree with some of the opposing opinions that you and others like Ninety-Three bring up but I appreciate hearing a different point of view and reading through the ensuing discussion.

The reason people generally get frustrated is because it's frustrating! It sucks having to explain cultural appropriation in every conversation you have about it, and the polarized climate that we live in has conditioned us to think that the labor of explaining generally isn't worth it because you'll put all this energy into something just to have someone engage with your text rather than your idea. This is why I felt compelled earlier to point out that people were disagreeing over words and not thoughts: When you spend the entirety of a discussion on what words to use, or how a certain person was inarticulate in some way, nothing is achieved but the frustration of all involved parties. Nobody learns anything and everyone leaves the same, but with higher blood pressure.

Talking about words is useful sometimes, but it so often feels like the words radicals use get undue scrutiny, which always feels like an attempt to discredit the ideas behind the words without actually engaging with them.

So yes, it's something that a lot of people, myself definitely included, need to work on, but there needs to be a certain receptiveness on either side. When someone is being condescending to you, it's probably not because of you, but because of the many people who came before you. Realize that, and try to be understanding.

I hope that made sense, who knows, I am on my afternoon work walk sorry!!!

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Whoops, after a little google it turns out I was thinking about this:

 But you, Twig, were being an aggressive dick around the same time.I've been on internet forums since I was 10 years old, so getting insulted isn't too much of a gut punch, I just think it promotes a hostile environment where no one feels safe to discuss anything beyond the norm.

It's hard to say without knowing what I was responding to, but I wouldn't have said "well fuck you then" if the person I was responding to wasn't being shitty.

 

Definitely nobody said anything about hate, though! I've only hated one person in my life, and that was a brief period of time.

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I barely know you so I can't possibly hate you!

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It's hard to say without knowing what I was responding to, but I wouldn't have said "well fuck you then" if the person I was responding to wasn't being shitty.

 

Definitely nobody said anything about hate, though! I've only hated one person in my life, and that was a brief period of time.

 

Here you go -

 

IPf2BXI.png

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The reason people generally get frustrated is because it's frustrating! It sucks having to explain cultural appropriation in every conversation you have about it, and the polarized climate that we live in has conditioned us to think that the labor of explaining generally isn't worth it because you'll put all this energy into something just to have someone engage with your text rather than your idea.

 

To be fair, I don't think this can be avoided.  I came across this article the other day that talks about a few situations where universities have been kind of fostering this idea that a particular turn of phrase can be considered violent, regardless of the intent, which leads to a lot of push back against the speaker.  Really that article is a whole other issue in itself, but the common thread throughout it is that an offensive thing is said without the speaker knowing it would cause offense.  The problem is, the argument that supports a particular phrase being violent or anti-(insert thing you value here) is that it is born of a particular circumstance, life experience, understanding of history, etc.  If you take a number of the arguments as to why cultural appropriation is bad, and apply a logical or objective proof to them, they almost never hold up.  Opinions of this nature, namely any opinions that are relative to a specific, culture, time period, identity, or politic, are born of a specific life experience or understanding.  It may be frustrating to have to go back to the drawing board so to speak, but since those things you are explaining are the basis of your reasoning, it isn't reasonable to expect people to understand them without personally undergoing or being made aware of the experience that lead to them.

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The reason people generally get frustrated is because it's frustrating! It sucks having to explain cultural appropriation in every conversation you have about it, and the polarized climate that we live in has conditioned us to think that the labor of explaining generally isn't worth it because you'll put all this energy into something just to have someone engage with your text rather than your idea. This is why I felt compelled earlier to point out that people were disagreeing over words and not thoughts: When you spend the entirety of a discussion on what words to use, or how a certain person was inarticulate in some way, nothing is achieved but the frustration of all involved parties. Nobody learns anything and everyone leaves the same, but with higher blood pressure.

Talking about words is useful sometimes, but it so often feels like the words radicals use get undue scrutiny, which always feels like an attempt to discredit the ideas behind the words without actually engaging with them.

So yes, it's something that a lot of people, myself definitely included, need to work on, but there needs to be a certain receptiveness on either side. When someone is being condescending to you, it's probably not because of you, but because of the many people who came before you. Realize that, and try to be understanding.

I hope that made sense, who knows, I am on my afternoon work walk sorry!!!

This is a great post.

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Here you go -

 

IPf2BXI.png

Haha oh okay then. (I remember this conversation, now.)

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I remember the context! Your justification still falls short! Time has not changed this.

 

The forum does have that functionality but I forgot about it until you just now mentioned it.

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To be fair, I don't think this can be avoided.  I came across this article the other day that talks about a few situations where universities have been kind of fostering this idea that a particular turn of phrase can be considered violent, regardless of the intent, which leads to a lot of push back against the speaker.  Really that article is a whole other issue in itself, but the common thread throughout it is that an offensive thing is said without the speaker knowing it would cause offense.  The problem is, the argument that supports a particular phrase being violent or anti-(insert thing you value here) is that it is born of a particular circumstance, life experience, understanding of history, etc.  If you take a number of the arguments as to why cultural appropriation is bad, and apply a logical or objective proof to them, they almost never hold up.  Opinions of this nature, namely any opinions that are relative to a specific, culture, time period, identity, or politic, are born of a specific life experience or understanding.  It may be frustrating to have to go back to the drawing board so to speak, but since those things you are explaining are the basis of your reasoning, it isn't reasonable to expect people to understand them without personally undergoing or being made aware of the experience that lead to them.

 

I completely agree with this. I know people don't want to be giving cultural appropriate or feminism 101 lessons all the time and I'm sure it gets super tiring; but of all places this is the place where having some patience and taking the time to try to educate others when they are asking honest questions actually has a chance to yield some results and change some opinions. 

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There's a link on the upper right corner of the quote box that will take you to that quote's source post.

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I completely agree with this. I know people don't want to be giving cultural appropriate or feminism 101 lessons all the time and I'm sure it gets super tiring; but of all places this is the place where having some patience and taking the time to try to educate others when they are asking honest questions actually has a chance to yield some results and change some opinions. 

 

Totally agreed, I think you can find quite a few people here who credit this forums, and this thread and the Feminism thread specifically, for having changed their views, in some cases significantly. 

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Totally agreed, I think you can find quite a few people here who credit this forums, and this thread and the Feminism thread specifically, for having changed their views, in some cases significantly. 

Yes I am one of them!

 

I guess I'd say if you don't want to be lecturing me, that's fine. Don't do it! Someone else might, though!

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I completely agree with this. I know people don't want to be giving cultural appropriate or feminism 101 lessons all the time and I'm sure it gets super tiring; but of all places this is the place where having some patience and taking the time to try to educate others when they are asking honest questions actually has a chance to yield some results and change some opinions.

This is why I sometimes bow out of conversations. I'll start typing something and halfway through just think, wow, I'm being an asshole! and just not.

It's a hard thing to stop yourself from doing, so sometimes the best choice is to just leave room for someone else.

Also are you Idle Thumbing while walking? That's impressive, I can barely read and walk at the same time.

I work in a building that has nothing around it and I walk in circles around it a few times a day because... desk job? I'm very used to the route and nothing and nobody is ever around (except the day the office next door had bouncy houses and I seethed with jealousy), so I can tap away at my phone while I do it!

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I've not heard about that argument before, it makes sense, white people profiting off something from a different culture that they can't profit off because of systematic oppression is pretty terrible. I don't know whether Bob Ross has that intention in his head at the time, but he still profitted from it.

 

The problem I have with arguments against typically black hairstyles on white people doesn't refute that point, but brings up an important problem. When you say white people can't be like black people, you're pretty much saying no culture mixing allowed, white people can't celebrate or enjoy anything from black culture, which is incredibly harmful. Say you're 1/32 black, are you allowed to have an afro? What about 1/16th? How black do you need to be to be allowed to have this particular hair style? Am I allowed to go to an African event? Look but don't touch? If I were adopted by African parents, am I allowed to wear the same traditional clothes they have to events?

 

The reason I brought it up in the first place, is because I know a white dude who defended dread locks on other white people, not any himself, and he was doxxed, harrassed, and chased out that community. To me, those leftist harassers are the people we should be questioning whether we want to associate ourselves with.

 

That's not what I'm arguing, all I'm saying is that harrassment should be discouraged and there should be some way to enable healthy criticism without resorting to aggression. I'm not saying left extremists justify right extremists or anything, I'm just saying that extremists shouldn't be tolerated. I'm not saying that the fact there are some left radicals with unhealthy ideas somehow affects the opposing arguments validity, I'm saying there should be a way where we can address problematic people who agree with us. Most of my fights on the internet are with people I agree with, but think they're doing something the wrong way, or are being detrimental to the message they're trying to promote.

 

 

Can you just not be a dick and not assume I'm some blithering baby monkey because I don't agree with you? I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm trying to improve myself.

 

Sorry for being a dick, but you literally held up something that you now want me to explain as an example of radical social justice people that need to be labeled because we're too out there. You just happened to point out something that you thought wouldn't be a held belief by people you were talking to but it turns out it was. I don't know, it gets super frustrating around here because despite taking a lot of time to explain things, people still condescend to me or straight up ignore my points in places like the feminism thread, no less. 

 

I can dig up some stuff on cultural appropriation when I get home though. 

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Speaking unironically here, Deadpan and Gorm are really good at it, I think.  I talked to them about stuff that could press all the hot buttons but those two never really got mad at me.

 

I'm glad to hear this given I still worry if I come off as unintentionally condescending. Maybe the worrying about it is what has led to this though, in which case I have to keep doing it I guess.

 

My initial intention when I entered this conversation was to address the default response of aggression as soon as someone with a differing opinion appears.

 

I can understand wanting to be given the benefit of the doubt, and yet that's also something that people often ask for with no intention of returning the favor. People rarely bring this up in social justice conversations because they want to start a productive back and forth on good faith, more often it's because they want to get their little "You know what really grinds my gears?" rant about gendered language (or whatever) out of their system in peace and then ignore or discard any counterargument to their criticisms by claiming that it's treating them with hostility. But for an actually productive conversation, it has to go both ways. If feminists (et al.) need to be willing to listen to these critiques, then its critics also need to be willing to listen to why maybe their arguments aren't entirely on point.

 

I don't want to say that this is what's happened here exactly and I don't want to say that your experience of being talked down to here is wrong: if that's what you feel like, then that's what you feel like. But since it looks like nobody here intended to come off as condescending, maybe you can still find a bit of the same patience in yourself that you'd like to see in others?

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It's okay. I try to take a lot of time to thoroughly explain my thought process on controversial things where I know I'm the odd man out, while also profusely apologizing through an entire paragraph, and I still get people being condescending at me and acting like I'm unaware of the thing I specifically said I was aware of in places like the feminism thread, no less.

 

Everything sucks! I quit!

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 Yeah, no need to be a dick. Don't assume others who disagree with you are just stupid. You're exactly the type of person I'm talking about, someone with a superiority complex.

 

I didn't call you stupid, I said you can take the time to educate yourself. I'm sorry if that came off as harsh, but I consider it a part of personal growth in this community, particularly when it comes to people with privilege. When first encountering social justice, a lot of people have to question some basic beliefs about the world, and that often results in doubling down on "those SJW crazies."

 

Nobody denies that "terrible leftists" exist. Like Bubsy said, this is an incredibly self-reflective community. If you feel attacked here, it's because your definition of such is demonstrably ignorant. In this thread you've cited appropriation of black hairstyles, the use of racism as a term of institutional power rather than personal prejudice, and were quoted being indignant over not using ableist language. That, in addition to your original assertion that "there are plenty of people who actually vehemently hate all white dudes, or think people who draw porn should be in prison or whatever," which still reeks of bogeymen to me. None of these are actual problems in the community - they're real intersectional issues that have trouble gaining traction because people see the initial headline of "Black people can't be racist" and think "That doesn't make sense," and attribute it to extremists instead of bothering to question what the truth is.

 

So I'm sorry that you feel put upon and are reading my posts as saying that if you were smart you'd agree. I still consider myself primo noob here so I generally don't want to step on anyone's toes. I actually agree (and think I've posted here before, or have said so in the chat) that we could use a little more back and forth discourse rather than echo chamber. In this case, though, this whole argument is steeped in ad hominem from the start - whether it's you talking about the extreme left or accusing people here of being dicks to you, etc.

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I'll say, much of that cultural appropriation stuff still is a book with seven seals for me. That's why I'm keeping that mouth shut for most of these parts. And no cornrows for me, folks. :ph34r:

 

I do like those.

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