"Ethics and Journalistic Integrity"

[twmac]

Sure. Please note that I'm largely paraphrasing up there (but accurately)

https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/enough

 

Right, it wasn't the post my friend was involved in.

 

It was an interesting listen because Bain basically articulates concerns that people have voiced about him. The whole 'think about the lives of people you are affecting' line was accurate but I just wish he applied that to his own logic. For some reason he only sees people coming out to destroy him and thinks little of the impact his words have on other people.

 

The description he gave of being on cancer treatment and people tweeting him telling him to die was kind of heatbreaking but counter pointed with the abuse that he has wreaked through his own careless comments and broadcasts... It is like he completely lacks empathy outside of his direct family.

 

I just don't understand how he can talk about the number of followers he has and cannot make the next logical step of what that means when he says something off the cuff. That he talks about the normality of getting death threats and does not seem to want to improve that... I just don't get it.

 

I know this has all been said before but yeah, it was desperately painful.

[Apple Cider]

I don't know, PewDiePie seems to navigate that minefield fairly well. I think this is just who TB is, with or without the platform. Is he any different now than he was in his WoW Radio days?

 

As someone who caught wind of him back in those days, I would say the answer is no

[Problem Machine]

I don't want to say he deserves that crap, nobody does. But it makes it seem strange and stranger that he continues to support their outrage. Maybe it's just a business move or maybe he genuinely believes in these incredibly petty crusades, but either way I'd feel more sorry for him if it looked like he made any attempt to listen to reasonable criticism instead of the toxic garbage that's... kind of the basis of his editorial philosophy? Or at least stopped acting like attention from his fans was an unequivocally good thing - I'm sending people to your charity stream, I'M HELPING.

I think the point is more that trying to point out how his behavior hurts people, even in the most reasonable and helpful of ways, ends up feeling like an attack to him because it's essentially impossible to do that without sealioning him. Everything is so amplified by so many voices, seeming moderate is impossible -- which is what makes it so easy for him to believe the "both sides are culpable" line, because from his perspective all he can see are vast walls of accounts generating noise and bile.

 

Again, I don't think this excuses his own lack of self-insight -- but it makes it functionally impossible to communicate with him now, even if he were predisposed towards communication.

[Vainamoinen]

It was an interesting listen because Bain basically articulates concerns that people have voiced about him. The whole 'think about the lives of people you are affecting' line was accurate but I just wish he applied that to his own logic. For some reason he only sees people coming out to destroy him and thinks little of the impact his words have on other people.

 

That's always the question to a degree... in what way do they know what they inflict? And I'll give John Bain one thing: his appearance of complete obliviousness has never flickered one bit.

 

Today, I've read that first Bisquit gamergate blog post in full, and I'm really not that sure anymore. It's the constant ebb and tide of first calming his followers to wait for more evidence, professing his own confusion and lack of reliable information, and then implicitly confirming the rumors by assessing the problem to be inherent in the industry, guilt to be probable or by passing summary judgement: 

 

 

Zoey [sic!] Quinn the developer of Depression Quest is being accused of exploiting the nepotism that tends to plague this industry

 

It is entirely possible that she did not issue this claim and that it's someone impersonating her. [...] even though the evidence I've seen up to this point seems to indicate that she is responsible.

 

[...] My understanding is that Zoe Quinn is accused of taking down one of Mundanematts [sic] videos because it used a picture of her game "without permission". With the insane shitstorm currently in the air it's impossible to know if that's actually true or not. If it is, it's bullshit.

 

[...] If these allegations are true I'm certainly disappointed in the outlets responsible.

 

[...] the thing which really makes my bloodboil [sic], whether efforts are being made to abuse the DMCA system to censor criticism of the developer. If that is the case, I thoroughly condemn it in every respect.

 

[...] If Zoey [sic!] Quinn did engage in censorship via the abuse of the DMCA on Youtube then I thoroughly condemn her actions as being both fucking stupid and unethical. If outlets did provide her favourable coverage because she had intimate relations with some of the writers, they're goddamn idiots for doing it

 

His protests that he really doesn't want to be involved in this shitstorm are dissolved for "only" two reasons, namely ethics in journalism and, SURPRISE:

 

Stuff like this is a good reason to NOPE the fuck out of most of these discussions. I don't want to be involved in them. Here are the 2 things I'm interested in talking about.

1) Game mechanics

2) Industry bullshit

This falls into the second category but it also has an unhealthy dash of

3) SJW/Tumblr/4chan/arguments/whatthefuckisevengoingon

 

Indeed, his noble fight against the Social Justice Warrior, which more than 90% of gamergate supporters name as the core reason for their being in gamergate.

 

Added into this whole drama shitstorm is a cadre of SJW types and whoever it is that is opposed to that, MRAs? [...]

 

Internetaristocrat did the main video on this, a channel mostly dedicated to debunking SJW topics and complaining about how prevalent they are in todays media. A fair cause for the most part, though it's a fine line to walk at the best of times. [...]

 

He embellished the "ethics" smoke screen with emeralds and diamonds AND handed gamergaters their primary enemy figure on a silver platter.

 

Well of course that blog post sparked organized harrassment, how could it not?

 

That guy, as much pity as I have on him, is nonetheless: an asshole.

 

[osmosisch]

Um, TB was the guy ranting about his IQ on message boards a decade ago, right?  I'm not convinced that he was ever a person capable of being reasoned with.

Yeah, he's been basically unbearable for as long as I've been aware of him, since the WoW days.

[itsamoose]

I think that snarky field of view comment a while back pretty much nails TB.  He isn't malicious and doesn't seem to have bad intentions, he just doesn't think through what he is doing.  He sees himself as an observer rather than a participant, and in his mind should be removed from any criticism and detests being involved other than to provide some commentary.  Contrast him with people like Angry Joe, who has a following he addresses directly, and I think TB ends up being a somewhat unique beast on youtube.  Sure he's obnoxious, but I don't think I could name 5 youtube personalities who aren't.  When he does something like this, it seems as though his intent is to throw something out into the community and see what happens, or perhaps provide some perspective on the matter without himself getting involved.  I just don't know how you go about explaining to someone like that who simply refuses to see themselves as part of something they created.

[Gormongous]

I think that snarky field of view comment a while back pretty much nails TB.  He isn't malicious and doesn't seem to have bad intentions, he just doesn't think through what he is doing.  He sees himself as an observer rather than a participant, and in his mind should be removed from any criticism and detests being involved other than to provide some commentary.  Contrast him with people like Angry Joe, who has a following he addresses directly, and I think TB ends up being a somewhat unique beast on youtube.  Sure he's obnoxious, but I don't think I could name 5 youtube personalities who aren't.  When he does something like this, it seems as though his intent is to throw something out into the community and see what happens, or perhaps provide some perspective on the matter without himself getting involved.  I just don't know how you go about explaining to someone like that who simply refuses to see themselves as part of something they created.

 

I mean, a lot of what's wrong with John Bain is the very common problem that intent is not magic. He'll frequently say something ignorant, naive, inappropriate, or cruel -- like all of us do to varying degrees -- but get extremely angry and defensive if even a few people point out that his message was not what he intended. A lot of that probably dovetails with Bain's fetishization of his own supposed intelligence and rationality, which keeps him from admitting to himself and to others that he didn't actually stop to think about any consequences to his actions that are now obvious in hindsight. I actually don't think that he's comfortable acknowledging that his actions have any unintended consequences, which means that he has to do some pretty serious revisionism about his various intersections with #GamerGate a year out now.

[Zeusthecat]

I will never understand people who don't have the ability to admit they are wrong or own up to shitty things they may have done. Generally speaking, I feel like if someone goes through the effort to call you out for something you said or did, there is probably enough of a kernel of truth there that it is worth acknowledging (obviously there are exceptions). And honestly, in most situations like these, what does a person really have to lose by admitting that maybe they were wrong or misguided? Wouldn't that actually make them look like a more mature, reasonable person in the eyes of most people? In John Bain's case, maybe his primary viewership would see apologizing as some kind of weakness but I like to think it would ultimately help his image in the eyes of most people. It is frustrating that he can't fucking see that.

 

Pride is a weird and fucked up thing.

[BobbyBesar]

I think that not admitting wrongdoing is actually the default position. It takes a level of self awareness to step outside yourself and consider the idea that others have valid experiences and opinions that happen to differ from your own.

I guess my point being, I think that sort of thinking has to be taught and then also actively applied to oneself. It's both easy and lazy to never consider another point of view.

[Zeusthecat]

I think that not admitting wrongdoing is actually the default position. It takes a level of self awareness to step outside yourself and consider the idea that others have valid experiences and opinions that happen to differ from your own.

I guess my point being, I think that sort of thinking has to be taught and then also actively applied to oneself. It's both easy and lazy to never consider another point of view.

 

Isn't that the type of stuff though that we're all supposed to be taught from a very early age? Recognizing when you hurt someone's feelings or did something bad and learning to say "I'm sorry"?

 

I'm not really disagreeing with you, just expressing my frustration that such a basic and obvious thing that you would think would be reinforced all throughout childhood is so hard to put into practice for so many people.

[Gaizokubanou]

I think that snarky field of view comment a while back pretty much nails TB.  He isn't malicious and doesn't seem to have bad intentions, he just doesn't think through what he is doing.  He sees himself as an observer rather than a participant, and in his mind should be removed from any criticism and detests being involved other than to provide some commentary.  Contrast him with people like Angry Joe, who has a following he addresses directly, and I think TB ends up being a somewhat unique beast on youtube.  Sure he's obnoxious, but I don't think I could name 5 youtube personalities who aren't.  When he does something like this, it seems as though his intent is to throw something out into the community and see what happens, or perhaps provide some perspective on the matter without himself getting involved.  I just don't know how you go about explaining to someone like that who simply refuses to see themselves as part of something they created.

 

Angry Joe comparison is interesting because I think you guys will find TB more unbearable if he were to engage with his audience the way Angry Joe does, which is to literally gather and direct the community.  Like if AJ were to start discussing the topics outside of reviewing games, I think his method of engagement would be far worse.

 

I still recall that tweeter lashout between AJ and editor of IGN over whether 8.9 for Titanfall could be summed as a 9 (yes, they were yelling at each other on public space over that...).  It was a fucking mess on both ends (to be fair to AJ, the IGN editor called him out first for misrepresentation).  My perspective might have something to do with the way AJ tends to type on social media though (using lot of abbreviations, which distinctively give off sense of 'tween' vibe) so I may be too critical of his social media handling for something superficial.

 

And it is this distance that I actually prefer for these youtubers because otherwise it gets just creepy exploitative.  Not going to name anyone out but you guys surely have seen tons of eceleb who goes on about how much they love the audience and the community then follow it up with "ok then here is how you can pay me, the guy/gal who loves you!".  The whole donate culture of games celebrity culture feels so grimey.  This aspect of TB distancing himself was something he's been doing at least as back as 2012 as an opposite of that tendency (he was answering a question about if he will ever accept donations) and it's something that I wish more ecelebs embraced cause the flip side feels really exploitative.  Like, I think he should keep doing that distancing and can understand the indirect impact he had on GG because that distancing arose out of awareness of what kind of influence he could have had over his audience.

 

So it's not that he is completely obtuse about his influence over his audience.  In ways (above mentioned one and about what it takes to succeed as youtuber, a topic where he was aware that it wasn't about some quality show but rather about cult of personality (basically becoming a celebrity)) I think he is way more aware than ordinary youtubers out there and that's why I had such high view of him prior to this GG debacle because that really stood out for me amongst the sea of "TODAY'S HIGHEST DONATOR!!! CAN YOU TOP THIS PERSON???".  It is with GG he is hyper obtuse for some reason, but I don't think he's being deceptive either cause of how consistent he is about this specific topic.

 

 

I will never understand people who don't have the ability to admit they are wrong or own up to shitty things they may have done. Generally speaking, I feel like if someone goes through the effort to call you out for something you said or did, there is probably enough of a kernel of truth there that it is worth acknowledging (obviously there are exceptions). And honestly, in most situations like these, what does a person really have to lose by admitting that maybe they were wrong or misguided? Wouldn't that actually make them look like a more mature, reasonable person in the eyes of most people? In John Bain's case, maybe his primary viewership would see apologizing as some kind of weakness but I like to think it would ultimately help his image in the eyes of most people. It is frustrating that he can't fucking see that.

 

I don't know man, that sounds like it could easily be used for victim blaming.  Like I could apply that word for word on Joey Quinn (or pretty much every single target of GG) but she doesn't owe a thing to her crazy ex.  And the notion of 'oh I was wrong' is extremely difficult to come by as CLWheeljack said, and that is without even adding regularly sent death threats.  People should apologies cause of what they did, not because bunch of people told them so.  But understanding what one did is super hard so... : /

 

Like do you guys remember that vegan thread and how heated it got at some points?  And that was with a small community of people whom I think are very well educated and well meaning for the most part.

[Zeusthecat]

I don't know man, that sounds like it could easily to victim blaming.  Like I could apply that word for word on Joey Quinn (or pretty much every single target of GG) but she doesn't owe a thing to her crazy ex.  And the notion of 'oh I was wrong' is extremely difficult to come by as CLWheeljack said, and that is without even adding regularly sent death threats.  People should apologies cause of what they did, not because bunch of people told them so.  But understanding what one did is super hard so... : /

 

Yeah, that's why I said there are obviously exceptions. As long as you have some semblance of common sense it should be obvious which party should be apologizing in your example.

 

And is this concept really that hard for people to grasp? Are so many people really so far up their own asses that they are incapable of understanding how their actions impact others?

[syntheticgerbil]

I will never understand people who don't have the ability to admit they are wrong or own up to shitty things they may have done. Generally speaking, I feel like if someone goes through the effort to call you out for something you said or did, there is probably enough of a kernel of truth there that it is worth acknowledging (obviously there are exceptions). And honestly, in most situations like these, what does a person really have to lose by admitting that maybe they were wrong or misguided? Wouldn't that actually make them look like a more mature, reasonable person in the eyes of most people? In John Bain's case, maybe his primary viewership would see apologizing as some kind of weakness but I like to think it would ultimately help his image in the eyes of most people. It is frustrating that he can't fucking see that.

 

Pride is a weird and fucked up thing.

CEO at this dumb company I worked at years ago was at some kind of shitty lunch gathering with his employees and a programmer was talking about how he admitted to his roommate he was wrong about something. Greasy haired CEO's response was something along the lines of, "Why would you ever admit you are wrong? That's showing weakness."

[Gaizokubanou]

Yeah, that's why I said there are obviously exceptions. As long as you have some semblance of common sense it should be obvious which party should be apologizing in your example.

 

And is this concept really that hard for people to grasp? Are so many people really so far up their own asses that they are incapable of understanding how their actions impact others?

 

I think it is definitely rare trait so my default is to not expect it.

 

I'm personally happy if I can get an awkward silence out of someone who's done me wrong.  On world view related topics on top, apologies are like, impossibly rare.

 

IDK what your religious beliefs are but have you tried talking to someone on the opposite end?  It's fucking impossible :x  I think my view on deity is pretty obvious and derived from common sense but apparently it also is an affront to reality for others~

 

This isn't to say I don't care for wrongdoings... just that perspective is ultra powerful force and that it dictates 'common sense' (wow I want to say comet sense so bad).  But this is getting way off topic and this topic is so rich on its own, Zeusthecat shall we open a new thread on this?

[Akidu]

I don't know.. It seems every person ever has a blind spot in which they become Totalbiscuit. Like the blind spot size can be reduced but inevitably everyone is that person to some degree at some point. I don't think our brains actually accept "truth" as much as we make out. 

 

But I really don't know so shrug.

 

Edit: reply to zues

[itsamoose]

And it is this distance that I actually prefer for these youtubers because otherwise it gets just creepy exploitative. Not going to name anyone out but you guys surely have seen tons of eceleb who goes on about how much they love the audience and the community then follow it up with "ok then here is how you can pay me, the guy/gal who loves you!". The whole donate culture of games celebrity culture feels so grimey. This aspect of TB distancing himself was something he's been doing at least as back as 2012 as an opposite of that tendency (he was answering a question about if he will ever accept donations) and it's something that I wish more ecelebs embraced cause the flip side feels really exploitative. Like, I think he should keep doing that distancing and can understand the indirect impact he had on GG because that distancing arose out of awareness of what kind of influence he could have had over his audience.

So it's not that he is completely obtuse about his influence over his audience. In ways (above mentioned one and about what it takes to succeed as youtuber, a topic where he was aware that it wasn't about some quality show but rather about cult of personality (basically becoming a celebrity)) I think he is way more aware than ordinary youtubers out there and that's why I had such high view of him prior to this GG debacle because that really stood out for me amongst the sea of "TODAY'S HIGHEST DONATOR!!! CAN YOU TOP THIS PERSON???". It is with GG he is hyper obtuse for some reason, but I don't think he's being deceptive either cause of how consistent he is about this specific topic.

I agree this is shitty, and generally speaking game personalities aren't even the worst offenders (fashion bloggers being paid for instagram photos and such). I think TB tends to think of himself as either a critic or a commentator, but then does this weird turn (which is unique to him as far as I know) where he refuses to admit what he does has any impact on the world at large. The distance he places between himself and the things he covers is probably a good thing, it's more the distance he places between himself and what he does that I find odd. He has one of the biggest channels on youtube, not just considering gaming channels, but can't seem to admit he has any influence he doesn't want to have. He's fine talking about how influential youtubers are, but doesn't seem to extend this observation to his own work. I don't know exactly what my point is here, but it's fucking weird.

[Gaizokubanou]

I concur.

[Zeusthecat]

CEO at this dumb company I worked at years ago was at some kind of shitty lunch gathering with his employees and a programmer was talking about how he admitted to his roommate he was wrong about something. Greasy haired CEO's response was something along the lines of, "Why would you ever admit you are wrong? That's showing weakness."

 

Ugh. I've definitely known plenty of these types and I always wonder if they have ever stopped for two seconds to actually think about how stupid that line of thinking is. And unsurprisingly, there seems to be a very strong overlap between that mentality and the world view that a lot of right-wing folks seem to have.

 

I'll definitely concede that this can get a little hairy when it comes to two people debating different points of view. If you have directly wronged someone, I really don't think it is that hard for most people to recognize. I think the only challenge there is usually just getting past your own sense of pride. But when it comes to actually debating or having an ideological argument with a person I think that's kind of different. Hearkening back to the vegan thread that Gaizokubanou mentioned, most of that was just (heated at times) debate (and also a trainwreck).

[Bjorn]

Ugh. I've definitely known plenty of these types and I always wonder if they have ever stopped for two seconds to actually think about how stupid that line of thinking is. And unsurprisingly, there seems to be a very strong overlap between that mentality and the world view that a lot of right-wing folks seem to have.

 

I'll definitely concede that this can get a little hairy when it comes to two people debating different points of view. If you have directly wronged someone, I really don't think it is that hard for most people to recognize. I think the only challenge there is usually just getting past your own sense of pride. But when it comes to actually debating or having an ideological argument with a person I think that's kind of different. Hearkening back to the vegan thread that Gaizokubanou mentioned, most of that was just (heated at times) debate (and also a trainwreck).

 

Speaking of ethics, I've been spending a lot of time over the last week thinking about how one goes about minimizing harm/hurt while also having to take actions that are going to inevitably cause harm, even if you've done the "right" thing by your own ethical compass.  Even then, I prefer to acknowledge that I've caused harm, even if I felt like ultimately I couldn't have made any other decision. 

 

The "never acknowledge wrongdoing/mistake" bullshit is pretty fucking high on my list of things deeply wrong with humanity though. 

[Bjorn]

It's a behavioral study, which I always take with a grain of salt, but this seems to blow the argument of "men are shitty to everyone in online games" out of the water.

 

Study Finds That Online Harassers Really Are Losers

 

“We show that lower-skilled players were more hostile towards a female-voiced teammate, especially when performing poorly. In contrast, lower-skilled players behaved submissively towards a male-voiced player in the identical scenario,” the study notes. Moreover, the worse a player was doing, the more likely they were to become abusive towards women, although most of the derogatory comments were not explicitly sexist.

[Problem Machine]

CEO at this dumb company I worked at years ago was at some kind of shitty lunch gathering with his employees and a programmer was talking about how he admitted to his roommate he was wrong about something. Greasy haired CEO's response was something along the lines of, "Why would you ever admit you are wrong? That's showing weakness."

This is unfortunately a very common line of thought among people in leadership positions -- and, more unfortunately yet, not one without some justification. The problem is, when you admit you're wrong, in a political context that can later be used against you, whereas if you never admit wrongdoing you can just keep spinning and spinning it, blaming anything that goes wrong on other people or on circumstances. This kind of an intrinsic social problem that selects for bad leadership in all walks of life. It's pretty shitty.

[Vainamoinen]

It's a behavioral study, which I always take with a grain of salt, but this seems to blow the argument of "men are shitty to everyone in online games" out of the water.

 

Study Finds That Online Harassers Really Are Losers

 

And the reddit reaction.

 

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/07/23/gamergaters-attack-study-on-video-game-losers-lashing-out-at-women-by-lashing-out-at-women/

 

 

Also, Dave Gilbert responds to to framerate police brutality.

 

[Vainamoinen]

GOG.com started selling Victor Vran today. With a bit of exclusive DLC. The DLC however must be retrieved via an in game/online login... aaaand is a one-time activation thing... by definition, DRM.

 

The people calling GOG out on their forums for allowing DRM there are called "SJW" by some extra heated people of the community.

 

Oh gamergate, oh gamergate.

[BusbyBerkeley]

What a fucking joke. I can't wait for these idiots to implode. Any month now, right?

[dium]

It's almost August again. It'll have been an entire year, and they're still around.