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JonCole

"Ethics and Journalistic Integrity"

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I doubt you'll find anybody here even remotely interested in hearing any kind of defense, justification, rationalization or apologia for what that guy did, and continues to do.

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I always saw Eron as a very intellectual person with semi-decent people skills.He was always super friendly and everyone had good things to say about him.


 


 


All this says is that person is a lousy judge of character. No level of romantic spurning justifies sending a hate mob after a person, leading to months of death threats and harassment. Also, I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who thinks his actions are truly abhorrent. 


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I doubt you'll find anybody here even remotely interested in hearing any kind of defense, justification, rationalization or apologia for what that guy did, and continues to do.

 

Yeah, I have zero interest in whatever justifications Gjoni thinks that he has. Time and again, he has shown himself to have a frightening inability to react appropriately to any situation having to do with Quinn. If you're bummed that the girl you're dating broke up with you, feel sad for a bit and then move on. If you feel that she was dishonest with you, feel sad for a bit longer and then move on. If you feel that she should be punished for failing to live up to your ideals of her, maybe don't do that and reexamine your life instead. If you get a fucking restraining order put on you for trying to mastermind a hate mob against her, definitely stop doing that and reexamine your life instead.

 

I don't even want to know the answer, but is Gjoni even aware that literally millions of other people have had messy breakups besides him and chosen not to turn it into an internet crusade to "save" their ex by ruining their life? I mean, I've dated a few people whom didn't treat me how I want to be treated. You know what I did? I told them so, before or during the breakup, and then stopped being a part of their life for good. Then again, I'm not sure "everyone has good things to say about me," which is apparently carte blanche to be a total asshole.

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Deadpan, I'm here... I'm not particularly interested in apologia for several different things, but I'm not even going to suggest you should shut up. Are we cool?

 

 

Feelthedarkness, well, in a thread titled after ethics in journalism, I actually think it illustrates nicely that journalists often will select what to quote in the interest of a specific bias. After all if her lousyness in judging character applies, it applies also to impliying Eron is autistic. Right? So I guess you see the journalist quoting an unreliable source as justified by... his prejudice?

 

And given how part of the content is in positioning Eron as obsessive stalking sociopath, I think the rest of the quote about how Eron discussed with friends what was the right way to proceed re the zoe Post kind of seems more relevant... is Eron's character what you are interested in discussing?

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You seem to have conflated a few points in a way that I'm not following, but to be honest I'm not interested in debating this with you. There is nothing you will say that will make me think Eron's actions were anything other than vile, and resulted in severe harm to a significant number of other people.

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The thread is titled "Ethics and Journalistic Integrity" because the conversation isn't actually about ethics because GG isn't about ethics. It's ironic.

 

There is no worthwhile ethical discussion to be had with relation to that article, all you're saying is that the writer is biased. Bias != lack of ethics. Also, I don't think that anyone here is interested in discussing Eron's character as much as they're interested in recognizing that Eron is a piece of human garbage.

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Eron is pretty obviously an obsessive stalker, and whether or not he's a sociopath isn't really that interesting a question.

Him approaching his friends to get a thumbs up for what he was doing, and then getting it, says something scary about how entitled men feel in and after relationships. It's one thing to vent to your friends about how your ex cheated on you and how terrible that was and how terrible they are for doing it, but it's a whole other thing to mine for proof and write up a crazy screed about it. He's obviously unbalanced, but to get that kind of affirmation from his support group is... awful. One person being blinded by their malice is an aberration, and something that can be dealt with fairly easily. A group being blinded by one person's malice points to an underlying problem in society that's incredibly difficult to even know how to approach.

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Oh dear. Don't take it as a personal attack, I am just telling you that the argument you are making will not be appreciated around here. Unless you mean to suggest that you are your own audience.

 

1) Bad social skills only imply autism if you conflate the two, which is a pretty shitty thing to do.

 

2) "bias" LOL

 

3) Are you genuinely surprised that writers pick from their material the sections that are actually relevant to their argument?

 

4) As a writer: all individuals you quote are unreliable sources. You quote them to show a specific perspective on something, not objective truths. In this case: how "normal" abusive folk can seem to their friends.

 

5) The contents of Gjoni's character have been made abundantly clear by his actions. This is not "positioning him as an obsessive stalking sociopath." There is a literal restraining order that shows he is a stalker.

 

 

A group being blinded by one person's malice points to an underlying problem in society that's incredibly difficult to even know how to approach.

 

It does, but I think it also speaks to the twisted perception of abusers. Like, it seems we're getting most of this approval filtered through Gjoni, minus that friend who thought it'd be good mental hygiene and didn't understand it was built to blow up in somebody's face. And people like him will misconstrue a lot of things for support. People go "Yeah, but" not wanting to antagonize them, and they just hear "Yeah!". Like, remember all those GG tweets along the lines of "When I told my mom about my plans to purge SJWs from gaming, she suddenly got very quiet. She obviously understands how important this is!"

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Somewhere early in this thread you can find a comment by me wondering what it would be like if the two or three people in the world who hated me the most decided to start posting shit about me online.  It wouldn't be pretty.  But by and large, my friends would describe me as a loving person, with good people skills, blah, blah, blah.  But there are a few people who will tell you what a dishonest, arrogant shitbag I am (including one ex).   I doubt any of us are universally praised or condemned by the people we have in our lives. To me, the interesting inclusion of Gjoni's friends in that piece is that of the ones who went on record, apparently none of them were freaked the fuck out by the Zoe Post, or even actively helped with it (something we already knew).  That's just flabbergasting to me.  I still don't know how to process that. 

 

I'm someone who actually believes in the communal value of gossip, when wielded responsibly.  Gossip is one of the ways that we informally pass on information that can be valuable, and I can think of people who have been protected thanks to it.  Gossip can also be devastating.  Like any other tool, gossip can have both good and evil outcomes.

 

Gjoni has at times defended what he did as a form of protective gossip.  It's not.  Carefully crafting a 9,000+ word multimedia dissection of your few month long relationship with someone is fucking scary.  Like, it really doesn't matter what his friends thought of him pre-Zoe Post.  The Post is the kind of thing that an obsessive stalker does.  I've thought that since the day it went live, and I have yet to see anything that particularly disabuses me of that notion. 

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And given how part of the content is in positioning Eron as obsessive stalking sociopath...

 

It's not exactly a tough row to hoe, is it? Even if we just look at his basic actions, he's positioned himself like that already, without needing to "twist" the testimony of his friends.

 

Obsessive:

  • Still thinking and talking about his ex publicly almost a year after they've broken up? Yep.
  • Wrote a 9,425-word exposé, the length of a substantial research paper at thirty pages, about someone he'd known for a few months? Yep.

Stalking:

  • Spent weeks harassing his ex, first to meet with him and then just to talk with him, and ultimately chose to document their conversations? Yep.
  • Has a court-issued restraining order of which he seems fully aware but which he flagrantly ignores? Yep.

Sociopath:

  • This one's to taste, but it's hard not to see, both in "The Zoe Post" and in the article above, that Gjoni wants to hurt Quinn badly and doesn't care about the consequences, which is damn hard to distinguish from sociopathy.
  • Specifically, bragging about hanging out with his new girlfriend and coding, while his ex lives in fear of her life thanks to his actions? Yep.

 

Also, please don't dance around this by just saying that Gjoni has reasons. Of course he has reasons, ones that are at least superficially reasonable. This isn't special. Everyone, even the worst human beings, has reasons, as well as people that they can find to agree with those reasons. That doesn't mean the things they do are right or justified, or that they should be protected or excused from the consequences of those things. If you post a screed on the internet and midwife a hate group, people will think you're a monster, full stop.

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Jon, I'm implying both that he is biased, and that he lacks ethics as a journalist.

 

feelthedarkness, I'm used to being misunderstood, replying to several people at once kind of helps. Yet we seem to agree discussing Eron is not worthwhile. Kind of strange how before I jumped in there was a bunch of judgment of Eron's character though... in fact you kind of doubled down on it.

Edit: Well, three more replies, getting more substantive at least...

Edit 2:

Deadman,

I didn't expect to be welcomed, I've lurked Idle Thumbs for quite a while and you guys wear your politics on your sleeves. So I know what I'm getting into. Then again, this is a community where abuse isn't really tolerated, so I think I'm safe enough.

I'm far from surprised at selection of evidence mate. But I thought journalists were supposed to be different from lawyers somehow. Guess not... social justice indeed.

I am surprised at one thing: how you take legal judgements as objective proof of character, right after knocking on objectivity :) I guess Dreyfus was a traitor, until he wasn't. Is that what subjective truth means? That it depends on legal sentencing?

Is that the new liberal approach to what is just? Social justice indeed...

Edit3:

Gormongous,

No, there is obviously a strong case against Eron. He did get convicted after all, and I don't think US justice system is as big a travesty as it often seems. I haven't read the Ferguson thread in a while, has the consensus there also turned in favor of the legal judgment? Just curious... ;)

Now, I appreciate you're already trying to predict how I could respond. But I think you are a bit on the wrong track. If you want my opinion about Eron ask away, but don't expect a substantial debate over merits - character judgment is too subjective for me to find value in arguing with you about it. Let's say the following: that the article positions Eron's character in a specific light, can be argued to be independent of what the underlying reality is. I'd disagree with that argument actually, my point is that it took conscious intent to paint the picture in such a harsh light. Now, you have an opinion on that underlying reality, obvious from your post. I also have an opinion on that underlying reality, but honestly, I haven't really offered much on it yet...

So since you haven't really asked directly, let me offer this - since you went to the effort of posting all that - while saying again, this is not the discussion I'm interested in having: obssessive, yes; sociopathic, no; stalker, undecided (too dependent on technicalities imo). Are you interested in any clarification?

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They dated for 5 months.  Non-consecutively.  This whole fiasco has lasted longer than their relationship.  And his only apparent regret is that he didn't go farther.

 

I feel pretty safe in judging his character.

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We concluded that discussing his character is pointless not because it is somehow unethical to portray him negatively by repeating his own statements, but because his actions have shown his character plenty well already and flashy profile pieces only serve to unintentionally glorify the asshole. Wouldn't exactly call that agreement.

 

I doubt I actually want to know what you think is worth discussing though.

 

This is goddam adorable. 

 

Pretty much.

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I am surprised at one thing: how you take legal judgements as objective proof of character, right after knocking on objectivity :) I guess Dreyfus was a traitor, until he wasn't. Is that what subjective truth means? That it depends on legal sentencing?

Is that the new liberal approach to what is just? Social justice indeed...

Did you really just compare being framed for treason to someone's ex getting a restraining order

Is this level of stupidity actually something I was exposed to today

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And given how part of the content is in positioning Eron as obsessive stalking sociopath, I think the rest of the quote about how Eron discussed with friends what was the right way to proceed re the zoe Post kind of seems more relevant... is Eron's character what you are interested in discussing?

 

I'm not sure why I should give any weight to what the guy's friends (who I know nothing about) might say about his actions. The very fact that they seemed to think it was cool for him to proceed with this makes me discount their opinions pretty heavily.

 

I also think it's pretty hilarious that you are honing in on the bias of selecting quotes to reinforce a story (which is not actually itself an ethical problem, btw), considering the entire Zoe Post was Gjoni doing the same thing about their entire relationship.

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Brasas, (forgive me, rest of the forum, for being genuinely interested), what is your argument? That Eron Gjoni is a good man? That his actions post Quinn breakup were reasonable? Is there a specific point that you're arguing against?

 

I don't understand why you're being argumentative, exactly. Or: I have pretty good guesses, but they're not flattering to you, and I prefer (against better judgement?) to give the benefit of the doubt.

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I didn't expect to be welcomed, I've lurked Idle Thumbs for quite a while and you guys wear your politics on your sleeves. So I know what I'm getting into. Then again, this is a community where abuse isn't really tolerated, so I think I'm safe enough.

 

Can I ask, if I may, why you thought that Eron Gjoni was the right flag under which to take a stand here? I mean, whatever you think of his reasons, this is the man who has been documented as publishing a colossal manifesto on his ex and then continuing to leak information when said information is causing widely visible harm to said ex. Only through the most partial and selective interpretation of Gjoni's motives, such as when he occasionally states that his goal in setting off #GamerGate was to get Quinn to go to therapy rather than commit suicide or quit video games, are we able to construct a scenario where he is a good person for doing any of this. The fact that his friends (maybe the most "biased" observers of Gjoni) think he's a alright guy and that "The Zoe Post" has done no real harm is almost tangential to the aforesaid situation, so I don't see the problem with leaving such "context" out of the article.

 

Also, I'm not so much appealing to the legal judgment of Gjoni inherent in the restraining order, but to his disregard of it. Surely, if it's baseless, he'd be able to get it thrown out, barring systemic collusion against him, but by ignoring and violating it instead, he's almost demonstrating that it was an insufficient response to his behavior in scale, not in type. Who shows that they're innocent of wrongdoing by doing more wrong? More pointedly, who brags about violating their gag order to a reporter?

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I don't wear sleeves.

 

Yeah, I meant to say, it was really distracting recording a podcast with you, because you were wearing a muscle shirt, like you do, and wouldn't stop flashing those guns...

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I'm sorry. They're just so great and all. Everyone should have a taste!

 

And yes I am sitting on my politics right now.

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I wear politics all over, pants, socks, undies etc. I even have political condoms, because, safety first you know.

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