Idle Thumbs 169: On Blade

[Twig]

TAKE MY MONEY DAMN YOU

 

THIS IS TOP OF NEW PAGE MATERIAL

[BFrank]

Maybe it's just because I heard a WoT ad on Marc Maron's podcast this week, but I don't think you guys should have qualms about it. The ad is clearly an ad, it's not ambiguous in the flow of the show, and the product isn't some disgusting ripoff that you'd normally steer people away from.

[Sean]

Senator Frank has spoken. Thanks sir, a big fan of your service. 

[BFrank]

Senator Frank has spoken. Thanks sir, a big fan of your service. 

 

No, thank you!

[sclpls]

Senator, Sean?

[Professor Video Games]

I thought the ad read was fine. Where you can get into murky waters is if you guys wanted to talk about the game outside of the ad space (probably not an issue with world of tanks). If anyone genuinely enjoys the game, the discussion is tainted by the possibility of advertiser influence, whether it's there or not. And even if you shit all over it, well then at best it's awkward and I know I'd feel a little strange trashing a game I just told listeners to check out. These kinds of things don't matter for other sponsors. If Chris actually hated those wasabi peas from Naturebox, who really cares. This isn't a podcast about healthy snacks.

 

Weirdly, this kind of thing bothers me less with normal ads on game sites. Maybe because there is a clearer delineation between the ads and the people producing the actual content? I dunno...

[SuperBiasedMan]

The thing that made the WoT ad weird for me was not the idea that I thought the ad was disingenuous but actually because it stood out amongst the rest of the podcast. Most of the content of this episode is just the Thumbs discussing things they want to talk about for whatever reason, they bring up games and topics they are interested in and then get sidetracked in ways that they are also interested in (in some way).

 

With the WoT ad, it really felt like a part of the episode where they thought "Ok let's do this thing we have to do."  and then they got diverted onto a totally unrelated topic where they were actually engaged in it. *Disclaimer: I could entirely be wrong and this might not be how others felt but it came off that way to me.*

 

By contrast, the nature box ads are clearly an endorsement for a thing they genuinely enjoyed and had entertaining chatter about it. I'm not expecting the Thumbs to rave about WoT and I know the realistically couldn't be critical or dismissive of it but it's just an unusual feeling to have the middle of the podcast be a part where I switch off because I know I'm hearing an ad and not the episode. It's actually unfair to ask the Thumbs not to do that really, given that plenty of podcasts do basically verbatim ads about whatever product and I don't bat an eyelid. But I've been spoiled by the Thumbs seeming actively involved in the advertisements they have chosen to read in the past.

[CaptainFish]

I figured you guys had some trepidation with the decision to do game ads on the cast.

That's about as good as advertising can get.  Paying content creators to insert ads into their content is inherently problematic, and the best you can do is structure it to have the least impact.

I don't entirely agree. What you say is true if filling an ad spot is accomplished by selling a space to anyone, but it's definitely possible for a content creator to form advertising contracts with products they are enthusiastic about. I think the latter approach is how ads should work, ideally. A good example of this is the fighting stick ads that the CrosscounterTV guys would run on Excellent Adventures, a youtube show about playing fighting games online. The sticks were used on the show before any ads showed up, and it's pretty clear that they were able to reach out at some point to the manufacturer for a mutually beneficial deal. Since the players were tournament-level, you could trust that they were recommending a good product, and people who used the code got a little discount. For Idle Thumbs, maybe the equivalent would be doing a Unity ad read. Or a microphone ad read.

 

I do totally agree that if ad decisions are made completely separate from editorial opinion less impact is better. Thinking about doing ads about products as an outlet that is about opinions of those same products hurts my brain.

[anthonyRichard]

The WoT ad was weird for me, not because it was a video game ad, but because it was just awkwardly read. Almost all the Thumbs ad reads are actual endorsements (some enthusiastic, some less so) of a product or service, as opposed to this ad which is just reading advertising copy about a thing nobody on the cast is interested in. The geek trinket-trash subscription ad felt similarly weird to me. Even the ad for that TV show was about how that period in history is actually really interesting so maybe the show could be good (it wasn't), which was fine.

BTW, by 'weird' I don't mean that I have a problem with it, just that it made me briefly uncomfortable. If you continued to do it, I wouldn't be that bothered.

[Bjorn]

I figured you guys had some trepidation with the decision to do game ads on the cast.

I don't entirely agree. What you say is true if filling an ad spot is accomplished by selling a space to anyone, but it's definitely possible for a content creator to form advertising contracts with products they are enthusiastic about. I think the latter approach is how ads should work, ideally. A good example of this is the fighting stick ads that the CrosscounterTV guys would run on Excellent Adventures, a youtube show about playing fighting games online. The sticks were used on the show before any ads showed up, and it's pretty clear that they were able to reach out at some point to the manufacturer for a mutually beneficial deal. Since the players were tournament-level, you could trust that they were recommending a good product, and people who used the code got a little discount. For Idle Thumbs, maybe the equivalent would be doing a Unity ad read. Or a microphone ad read.

 

I do totally agree that if ad decisions are made completely separate from editorial opinion less impact is better. Thinking about doing ads about products as an outlet that is about opinions of those same products hurts my brain.

 

I see what you're saying, and yes, endorsing things you genuinely use and like is in many ways a great way to do it.  I think that's especially true in something like when the Thumbs enthusiastically endorse a delicious snack.  But even with the example you use, that's actually still problematic to me.  I don't know anything about that show, but what if the quality of sticks goes down?  What if a bad batch is produced (something that has happened in electronics with an otherwise stellar reputation), will the show say anything about that?  What if a new competitor in the stick making world comes out and wants to advertise, but that show won't do it because they have an existing financial relationship with another maker?  Are they really serving their audience if they have a hesitancy to try other products?  Those "what ifs" really aren't that far fetched, as there are very similar examples all over the history of media and advertising.  I'm a pretty firm believer that there is an inherently corrupting influence from advertising, not even from intentional pressure, just because the psychology of getting paid for something changes your relationship to it. 

 

That said, it's often a necessary evil that produces real good (content creators get to produce stuff we love without having to charge, or charge as much for it). 

[Gormongous]

That said, it's often a necessary evil that produces real good (content creators get to produce stuff we love without having to charge, or charge as much for it).

Oh, I don't think anyone's saying that the Thumbs should go without advertising if the only alternatives are slightly uncomfortable ads. Like Clyde said, it's just interesting hearing their thought processes and everyone else's reactions. I find it interesting that I have literally no problem with Chris, Sean, Jake, or Nick reading an ad and then proceeding to talk about the game that the ad is for, which other people think would be gross, whereas an ad about any product that the Thumbs lack any experience or interest in is something I don't care about hearing at all.

I hope this conversation can continue, basically.

[SecretAsianMan]

I agree with the people who said the read was weird because it didn't feel natural and was more like a standard ad.  I don't really have a problem with the idea because Idle Thumbs doesn't review games or report on games.  I would feel weirder if they did those things because then I'd question whether or not the sponsorship affected said review/report.  As it stands, I think if an ad comes up that they're comfortable reading, then I'm fine with it being there.  Although I do agree with Gormongous and would like to hear their actual opinions instead of words from a page.  One thing I like about the Thumbs ad reads is that they don't sound like they're being read.  On other podcasts, I've sometimes heard the host literally say "Hang on a second, I have to read this thing".

[tegan]

I'm in the "the WoT ad read was weird and incongruous to me" camp.

 

The geek trinket-trash subscription ad felt similarly weird to me.

 

The Lootcrate read happened right around the time someone bought Ashens a subscription to LootCrate, so within the span of a week or so I had heard the Thumbs promoting it and seen firsthand that all the merchandise you get is actually kind of crappy.

[Bjorn]

Oh, I don't think anyone's saying that the Thumbs should go without advertising if the only alternatives are slightly uncomfortable ads.

 

Sorry if I gave that impression! I don't think anyone is suggesting that either.  I was mostly just trying to give a frame of reference for how I feel about advertising and media in general, to put any of my other thoughts in context.

[radaxian]

I agree with Sean. We're finding our footing with this kind of thing, and feedback is really useful. I'm also not crazy about doing a generalized Patreon; I don't really like the idea of soliciting the general readership for money if it's not for a specific purpose we can enumerate (beyond just "pay our monthly bills"). I'm sure there are readers who would be totally open to that (as several of them have told us so) but for some reason it just doesn't feel right to me in this particular case.

 

Another option you could consider regarding listener donations is the GWJ approach. They set aside a month each year as their donation drive month and never ask outside that period (though they have taken on some ads too) which seems like a reasonable compromise.

 

I'd prefer if you avoided game ads too. The read for WOT did stand out as odd as a listener who has some appreciation for the types of experiences that normally interest the thumbs. I find these ads less incongruous when pre-recorded at the start of podcasts rather than mid way through but I accept that this is probably less effective and a mid episode live read may be something advertisers require.

 

All credit to you for openly discussing with your audience too.

[Badfinger]

For what it's worth, almost all of my disquiet would be answered by one of the Thumbs spending an hour or two with the game, just so that the ad came in part from a place of experience. I trust you guys enough for me not to worry about blurring the line between content and advertisement, but I would like as much as possible of the podcast to be informed firsthand.

This is not really quite equivalent, but I'm interested in your thoughts. How would you feel about Danielle doing the read for Hover or Nature Box if she hasn't used/experienced them? Or any of them if the clutch Nature Dipes sponsorship finally comes through?

e: Oh crap, I meant to hit post on this about 3 hours ago and all kinds of discussion happened while I failed to hit the button.

I should comment once again, since I had no problem with the ad and actually signed up for a WoT account due to it directly, that my impetus was not "The Thumbs endorsed this thing, therefore it's good" but rather was a product I already had interest in and knew that finally going in for it would generate a positive result from the ad being read. If it was an ad for say, Firefall? I would not have signed up for an account because that's a hot pile of garbage!

While I often get enjoyment out of the ads because they will turn silly, I have never been confused about when the ad read portions of the cast are happening. I've always been able to tell that there's a cut away from stream of consciousness podcast to ad read. And that's fine! If reading ads for domain registrars, crunchy hippie snacks and c00l nerd swag boxes for $13.37 a month helps keep Idle Thumbs what it is and gives it the potential to expand occasionally past just casting a pod into my face for once a week, go for it. I don't know if many of you are Giant Bombcast fans as well, but they promised their premium subscribers would never have to hear ads. When they ran them, I preferred to listen to the non-premium cast with ad reads because Jeff and Vinny made a story out of them and it was often funny. It was more podcast, and I always want more podcast. I feel the same way about these ad reads. Without Nature Box, I would never have heard Chris's plaintive plea for peas. It's not that I WANT ads, but there is either enough freedom or the podcasts I like take enough liberty with them that they're still potentially entertaining. If you, Sean, Chris, Jake and Danielle are uncomfortable with them, it's not like you'll upset me that they're gone. But knowing they're good for the podcast is good enough for me.

[Problem Machine]

I'll wait for some sort of official "we are not doing game ads," decision between Jake and Chris and I...

You guys support us way more than I could ever imagine and I don't want to pass the hat (I'm speaking personally here, Jake and Chris might have different opinions) again...

Just have to wonder, are Nick and Danielle part of decisions like these?

[Merus]

What you say is true if filling an ad spot is accomplished by selling a space to anyone, but it's definitely possible for a content creator to form advertising contracts with products they are enthusiastic about. I think the latter approach is how ads should work, ideally. 

 

This reminds me of the Cash For Comment scandal here in Australia, where it was discovered an influential talkback radio host was endorsing products that he liked, but those products were paying for his endorsement, and he wasn't mentioning that. His defence, such as it was, was that it was a mutually beneficial relationship, and that he liked them because they supported his show with money.

 

And then I think of the Naturebox ad reads, where the Thumbs are enthusiastic about the service but mostly because Naturebox gave them a free box. (Of course, the Thumbs are clear that Naturebox are sponsors.)

[shammack]

The World of Tanks ad was less weird to me than the Lootcrate ones. This one just felt like reading ad copy to pay the bills, whereas the Lootcrate ones felt like struggling to come up with something to say about a product that nobody was really into (which was more amusing, but made me feel awkward by proxy).

 

But I don't have a problem with any of the ads so far being on the podcast.

[syntheticgerbil]

WORLD OF THANKS!

 

Also I want you guys to get Extreme Restraints. I miss it on MBMBaM.

[jccalhoun]

Tried out Velvet Sundown and it seems interesting but both time si've played most of the people have gone afk so it got boring without anyone to interact with.

[Jake]

Just have to wonder, are Nick and Danielle part of decisions like these?

They are if/when they want to be, but Idle Thumbs LLC (formed out of the Kickstarter) is Chris, Sean, and me, so the three of us usually end up dealing with things that directly touch anything financial or businessey. If Danielle or Nick think we're doing something totally dumb we will hear it.

[Cleinhun]

WORLD OF THANKS!

 

Also I want you guys to get Extreme Restraints. I miss it on MBMBaM

 world of thanks to extreme restraints.

 

 

...yeah, that's all I have to contribute.

[Bjorn]

WORLD OF THANKS!

 

Also I want you guys to get Extreme Restraints. I miss it on MBMBaM.

 

I could only hope that they would send them a box of samples to try out!

[BigJKO]

It was a bit weird to me, but only because I've been quite fond of the ads so far where the Thumbs have actually used the service in question and enthusiastically recommend it. I'm using Hover and Squarespace because of the Thumbs!