Chris

Idle Thumbs 168: I Like the Hair

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Okay, I think maybe we're closer in opinion than it appeared at first. I guess the question is if the game is in fact over, is there any value to watching the game play out? This is a weird thing, and this is where LoMas differ from sports which mostly have a fixed time frame instead of an objective to accomplish. The question is would that doomed game produce anything interesting to watch? Some people might think so, but others might find it boring. It's pretty ambiguous I think.

 

Sure, I'm not trying to dictate rules here -- which is why I would never say "pull GG as a feature of the game." But I'm saying VG laid down 3 times in a row in the grand final. They GG'd after losing ONE TOWER.  I think, if you're a player who really knows you're there because of the people watching you play, you play differently in those scenarios.

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I take it you missed this year's world cup final?

I'm talking purely mechanically not psychologically

At one point one of the casters of the N00b stream made an analogy which went something like

"Dota is like basketball, but where teams starts out 4 foot tall & every time a team scores a point it's players grow a inch"

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I'm talking purely mechanically not psychologically

At one point one of the casters of the N00b stream made an analogy which went something like

"Dota is like basketball, but where teams starts out 4 foot tall & every time a team scores a point it's players grow a inch"

 

Yeah, I agree. I don't think the snowball nature of the game precludes people from not GG'ing after one tower.  That 4' tall guy can still punch Shaquille O'Neal in the balls.

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FWIW the specific game you mentioned looked like an early GG call to me as well, but I'm so new to DOTA I'm reluctant to really argue the point.

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Yeah, I agree. I don't think the snowball nature of the game precludes people from not GG'ing after one tower. That 4' tall guy can still punch Shaquille O'Neal in the balls.

Ok that got a genuine laugh from me, you win. Guess we now know how you'd win the duel with Obama. I think the 'Famous' may need replacing with 'Infamous' :D

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I basically agree with Sean that VG essentially gave up 3 times in a row, but I was honestly more disappointed at the draft than at the actual GGs. ROtk said in an interview lead up to their match that Vici Gaming had other strats than a very fragile early push line-up, and when I saw what was basically the same draft fail twice in a row and they went for it again it felt like a for sure loss. To give a specific example of a possible different pick, ROtk has an amazing Clockwork that won them game 1, and he went unpicked and unbanned in the last two games. Lone Druid was another hero who did well game 1 and failed to reappear.

 

Seeing that sort of drafting is perplexing, but I guess the pressure and fear can mount and you can make mistakes. Evil Geniuses, who were possibly the best drafting team of the entire event, won a game on Vici Gaming off the back of Universe's Faceless Void play, and then gave the hero to Mason who only managed to hit single hero Chronospheres. On the other end of the spectrum, when Cloud9  was down a game versus Vici Gaming and at risk of getting knocked out of the tournament they went for a Meepo pick, and won the only win for that hero at the event (255 games total, 10 meepo bans, 3 meepo picks). That's the kind of drafting I was hoping to see at the final. Honestly, this TI has taught me more than ever that games can be won during the draft, but VG barely even put up a fight with their picks for those last 3 losses.

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I basically agree with Sean that VG essentially gave up 3 times in a row, but I was honestly more disappointed at the draft than at the actual GGs. ROtk said in an interview lead up to their match that Vici Gaming had other strats than a very fragile early push line-up, and when I saw what was basically the same draft fail twice in a row and they went for it again it felt like a for sure loss. To give a specific example of a possible different pick, ROtk has an amazing Clockwork that won them game 1, and he went unpicked and unbanned in the last two games. Lone Druid was another hero who did well game 1 and failed to reappear.

 

Seeing that sort of drafting is perplexing, but I guess the pressure and fear can mount and you can make mistakes. Evil Geniuses, who were possibly the best drafting team of the entire event, won a game on Vici Gaming off the back of Universe's Faceless Void play, and then gave the hero to Mason who only managed to hit single hero Chronospheres. When Cloud9  was down a game versus Vici Gaming and at risk of getting knocked out of the tournament they went for a Meepo pick, and won the only win for that hero at the event (255 games total, 10 meepo bans, 3 meepo picks). That's the kind of drafting I was hoping to see at the final. Honestly, this TI has taught me more than ever that games can be won during the draft, but VG barely even put up a fight with their picks for those last 3 losses.

 

I apologize for everyone for esoteric Dota talk taking over the ep thread but I will just say I agree.  I think players are just inexperienced and yeah, fear plays a factor.  It's so dull to say but it's why I like Navi.  I feel like their lord picks tend to land in the "oh shit, we might be able to win if we do this and if we lose at least it'll be spectacular."  

 

I don't think risk-averse / fear-driven drafting is evidence of some sort of "fuck the fans" attitude but I don't think that opposite thought comes into play either.  

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But I'm saying VG laid down 3 times in a row in the grand final. They GG'd after losing ONE TOWER.

 

I don't think the kill score or the number of towers destroyed are comparable metrics to a traditional sport's scoring system. The heroes picked, the teams' relative levels, and the specific item purchases are more telling.

 

Have you considered comparing the entire three or five game series of DOTA to a single game of a sport? Think of each game like an Inning or something.

 

That 4' tall guy can still punch Shaquille O'Neal in the balls.

 

...and then Shaq picks up the guy by the neck and punches him in the face for 20 minutes. It's just sad to watch at some point.

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A quick question for Sean & the other Dota lords:
 
Was VG's tactics a case of them falling back on what was familiar to them? or just to something recognised as a generically safe choice? 
 
My post final impression was:
 

I found that last draft interesting in it's own way. It reminded me a bit of the Brazil-Germany game in the world cup where it felt like one team realised subconsciously almost as soon as it kicked off they had made a mistake and reacted not by trying to adapt but just falling into a delusion that the only thing going wrong was execution not the plan itself. Maybe Dota has even less room to adapt than international football though.
 
Come on though, for me 2nd game Puck performance seemed excellent enough to make the day as a whole worthwhile. Admittedly she's the hero(ine) I've spent the last week practising with so it was great to see someone execute flawlessly with it.

 

Which i guess is the former rather than the later, but then again I was reading all these assumptions from the tone commentary & the small sample of games I'd seen them play in rather than any real knowledge of their history & the meta.

 

On a side note: A big part of what i like about dota is how much space i feel there is to grow my understanding as a spectator (almost without a cap) so its actually kinda cool to see esoteric dota talk

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I don't think the kill score or the number of towers destroyed are comparable metrics to a traditional sport's scoring system. The heroes picked, the teams' relative levels, and the specific item purchases are more telling.

 

Have you considered comparing the entire three or five game series of DOTA to a single game of a sport? Think of each game like an Inning or something.

 

 

...and then Shaq picks up the guy by the neck and punches him in the face for 20 minutes. It's just sad to watch at some point.

 

 

There are plenty of sports that have playoff series. The NHL has the best playoffs in literally all of sports because of the drama of 7 game series.

 

Re: Games are timed - Baseball is a game without a time limit. The more you avoid making outs, the further you extend the game. Both teams start with an even playing field and the same amount of resources, and it's a game of attrition.

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Personally, I think the current balance of income from prize pools vs sponsorship actually makes for more interesting competition.  Playing to win is much more important than playing to stand out right now, and I feel like it makes the game more pure.

 

I find the idea that players should feel some sort of obligation to alter their strategy for the sake of appeasing fans to be pretty bizarre.

I feel like there is a correlation between where you stand on this issue and where you fall on the Alliance - Navi spectrum of fandom.


Regarding the finals specifically, why would VG choose to prolong a game they have very little chance of winning when it becomes increasingly harmful to their psyches?  Sometimes it is a relief when the team I'm supporting GGs early in the game knowing that it would have probably destroyed their confidence if they had spent another 40 minutes being pushed around in the vain hope that they might be able to somehow pull off a surprise victory.  20-5 at 20:00 minutes and 47 - 7 at 60:00 is still 1 point for the victor, but a 60 minute stomp takes a lot more out of the losing squad.


Even the very last game in the series, I can't blame VG for not fighting until the ancient fell.  They have so much emotionally invested in the outcome.  You can see it in the player interviews.  I would feel pretty weird insisting that they should have to prolong their defeat and deal with that state of being for an additional 30-40 minutes for my amusement.

The final series wasn't fun to watch, but sometimes in life things don't turn out the way you hope.  In entertainment, you alter things to make the boring things more exciting.  TI3 isn't going to happen every year, but when it does you know that the players aren't thinking about their fans or their sponsors, they're thinking only about winning.

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I can't believe I read through all your comments. This Dota discussion is so equally esoteric and non-productive? Unless you are all future TV executives. My old boss said: "If you can't change it, don't worry about it".

I don't want this years TI to be any different then it was. If you love the game you respect the game - you don't change it, unless you are the developer. People watch 12 hours of golf, for Christ's sake... every day. Questions of balance and 'the right way' - ask 5 people, get 10 answers?

 

Watching Newbee on Monday 14th going from 9 AM, beating everyone on their way, was a treat. There were so many great (and close) games this year. 

 

The Super Bowl game usually never is the best game of the season. Why should Dota2 be different?

 

Do continue, by all means ...

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I can't believe I read through all your comments. This Dota discussion is so equally esoteric and non-productive? Unless you are all future TV executives. My old boss said: "If you can't change it, don't worry about it".

I don't want this years TI to be any different then it was. If you love the game you respect the game - you don't change it, unless you are the developer. People watch 12 hours of golf, for Christ's sake... every day. Questions of balance and 'the right way' - ask 5 people, get 10 answers?

 

Watching Newbee on Monday 14th going from 9 AM, beating everyone on their way, was a treat. There were so many great (and close) games this year. 

 

The Super Bowl game usually never is the best game of the season. Why should Dota2 be different?

 

Do continue, by all means ...

 

 

It's sports chat. Me criticizing the coach for his in-game decisions doesn't make them change, and him not changing them doesn't make me want to discuss them less.

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The Super Bowl game usually never is the best game of the season. Why should Dota2 be different?

For one thing, there is no season. If there were, all this stuff would be less relevant.

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All of this Dota talk is fine, but I was really hoping to hear more discussion on the Destiny Beta.

 

Or, as I imagine they pronounce it in the UK, "Deestiny Beeta."

 

So I'm sort of on a queest.  A queest for more poop on the Deesinty Beeta.

 

MJD

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I can't believe I read through all your comments. This Dota discussion is so equally esoteric and non-productive? Unless you are all future TV executives. My old boss said: "If you can't change it, don't worry about it".

I don't want this years TI to be any different then it was. If you love the game you respect the game - you don't change it, unless you are the developer. People watch 12 hours of golf, for Christ's sake... every day. Questions of balance and 'the right way' - ask 5 people, get 10 answers?

I haven't watched, let alone played, Dota since early Warcraft 3 days. I'm just here because I'm interested in the opinions of smart people on subjects about which they care. Why are you here, that you want to shut down the conversation?

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I feel like VG didn't think they could beat Newbee in a straight up game (and it really isn't in their style to go all out crazy with their picks like a C9 or a Na'Vi, the games would have been even more one sided if they had done that.) I think a lot of people decided to underestimate Newbee based on the group stage, they've consistently been the best team in China for the last few months.

 

Despite not losing buildings, VG were completely out of the games they lost. Sitting around hoping for Newbee to make mistakes wouldn't have made for a better series, to be honest.

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===PAUSE DOTA TALK===

 

I found Chris' experiences with Destiny fascinating. I've been watching MMOs for a long time, as there's such a gulf between the fantasy of them and the reality, and it's interesting to see what they look like from the outside.

 

It's weird to me that Bungie built a straight-up sixth-gen MMO, complete with public events and heavy instancing for story content (and dancing emotes! why would you put dancing emotes in an MMOFPS for fuck's sake, it's not like you're going to get a strong roleplaying community), when they probably would have been better served either deviating from the design, or looking more carefully at their antecedents. For instance, many games do level scaling so everyone's at the right expected level, within an expected power range; some games build loot so that the stat distributions are all the same proportions so you don't have that incremental thing.

 

But I also remember that ArenaNet junked levels entirely in the early alpha of Guild Wars 2 and players hated it - the idea of vertical progression and numbers going up is very appealing to some people, because it plays into a power fantasy that because they've beat this game now they can kill everything in one hit. It sounds like it's a mess in Destiny - you can at least make it manageable by putting in level scaling and locking gear into 'tiers' where each item in the tier has the same stat budget - but Activision want their new MMO now that World of Warcraft is past its prime.

 

===RESUME DOTA TALK===

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I haven't watched, let alone played, Dota since early Warcraft 3 days. I'm just here because I'm interested in the opinions of smart people on subjects about which they care. Why are you here, that you want to shut down the conversation?

Seriously. I don't play Dota 2 at all, but this conversation is still super interesting to me. Moreover, it's basically the reason I come to this forum in the first place: to read people who know a lot about a thing having an in-depth conversation about it.

If you don't like it, there's a lovely button in the top right of your screen that will solve all of your problems.

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I found Chris' experiences with Destiny fascinating. I've been watching MMOs for a long time, as there's such a gulf between the fantasy of them and the reality, and it's interesting to see what they look like from the outside.

 

It's weird to me that Bungie built a straight-up sixth-gen MMO, complete with public events and heavy instancing for story content (and dancing emotes! why would you put dancing emotes in an MMOFPS for fuck's sake, it's not like you're going to get a strong roleplaying community), when they probably would have been better served either deviating from the design, or looking more carefully at their antecedents. For instance, many games do level scaling so everyone's at the right expected level, within an expected power range; some games build loot so that the stat distributions are all the same proportions so you don't have that incremental thing.

 

It's still baffling to me that a company that did a talk about changing the time between sniper shots by 0.2 seconds made a game where you just kinda make numbers go up. I'm sure there's still plenty of balance going on but it seems like such an opposing philosophy.

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It's still baffling to me that a company that did a talk about changing the time between sniper shots by 0.2 seconds made a game where you just kinda make numbers go up. I'm sure there's still plenty of balance going on but it seems like such an opposing philosophy.

The guy who did that talk isn't there anymore. Obviously he's not the only factor (although he did basically do ALL of that tuning on the first several Halo games) but my suspicion is that, as with every studio that gets big enough, a combination of growth and decades of turnover will eventually dilute really specific things about your design philosophy/culture/etc.

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The one thing that Destiny makes me really want is a Bungie-designed console web browser, since those are always awful and Destiny has that sweet, sweet cursor control.

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Was VG's tactics a case of them falling back on what was familiar to them? or just to something recognised as a generically safe choice? 

 

 

I think you see sports teams come out with a gameplan that minimizes the chance of a game being over by halftime, especially if it's something like an NBA playoff series. There's a recognition that your fans don't want to watch a half of foregone conclusions, and that any team good enough to compete should be good enough to make it interesting for at least a half hour.

 

So, I'd call it bad coaching when you lose game 4 at the 14 minute mark. Elimination games are usually about keeping it close and giving yourself some opportunities at the end.

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Not only do I find the discussion interesting even knowing nothing about the game, but I loathe the mindset that, as a player of the game, you should either enjoy it uncritically or stop playing it. While discussions that happen here won't change DOTA2, a thousand discussions happening on different forums may -- moreover, as our understanding of what worked and/or didn't work at TI4 grows, so does our understanding of what makes a good and interesting 'e-sport'. I think that's valuable, even if none of us works at Valve.

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