Binding of Isaac: Rebirth

[Problem Machine]

The most commonly relevant thing though is that if you take a deal with a devil you'll get more devil deals and if you take an angel pedestal you'll get more angel deals. I don't believe either red chest drops or Krampus drops count, it has to be deals or angel pedestals.

[Undeadpool]

Without items I'm not actually sure you're ever "guaranteed" a Devil (or Angel) room, but I do know that taking no Red damage definitely increases the chances of one spawning by a TON.

[Trip Hazard]

The Haunt is a tough boss. I don't think it's very fair that he can spawn on the first floor

[Undeadpool]

The Haunt is a tough boss. I don't think it's very fair that he can spawn on the first floor

The Haunt is a VERY tough boss and the only one I'd say that's actually harder for Azazel than any "standard" build.

[mikemariano]

The Haunt just doesn't feel like the rest of the Binding of Isaac.  There's only one obvious, boring strategy to fighting him.  If you're playing with a low-damage character it's just tedious.

 

I just fought two Haunts in a double-wide room.  That actually felt like a better fight because of the increased area.

[Bjorn]

The worst thing about the Haunt is that it can show up on the first floor. It makes blue baby runs and *hidden character* runs really obnoxious.

[Griddlelol]

I'm listening to The Giant Bomb GOTY discussions about The Binding of Isaac. UGH! They're so wrong! One member is saying that "you need a FAQ open to play" because nothing is explained...

 

That's the point. 

 

Bleh, I don't normally give a shit what people think of a game I like, but I normally like these guy's opinions and they're just so wrong.

[Ninety-Three]

As someone who hated Binding of Isaac, I'm going to have to jump in and defend this Giant Bomb guy.

 

I assume that he's complaining about the items, which was one of my issues with the game. Not knowing what the items did was confusing at best, and at worst led to me picking up an "upgrade" whose effect I would rather not have, and wouldn't have picked up if I'd known. The game was punishing me for not knowing an item's negative effects. It doesn't matter if it's intentional, that's bad. That's a dickish and unfair thing for a game to do, and the fact that game is being dickish on purpose is hardly a defense.

 

If you're supposed to play with a FAQ open, the game should just have tooltips to save you the trouble, and if you're not supposed to, then it's just being a dick.

[Bjorn]

No, that's not being dickish, nor is it bad design.  It may not be something that you or the GB guy like, but that doesn't make it either of those things.  There are few, if any, items that will always be a negative pickup for the player.  Even items that are terrible by themselves have some astonishingly good synergies that can emerge with other items.  And if you pick up an item that you absolutely hate and despise, then you're probably going to remember what it looked like and not pick it up anymore. 

 

And in a rogue-like where a bad room or decision can wreck your playthrough, I don't see how being ignorant of an item's effect during the initial playthroughs is any different than not knowing what a new enemy or boss will do.  You quickly learn a bunch of the items right away, because the more common items you will see all the time.  Once you've played for awhile, if you run across an item you don't remember what it does, absolutely tab out to a guide real quick to remind yourself.  But that's not the same thing as needing to play with a FAQ open.

 

To me, at least for awhile, it is about a process of discovery, being lost in a world of a bunch of unknowns and needing to figure things out.  Just letting the player know from the start what every item does would break part of the what makes BoI good.  It would be like a Souls game giving you arrows to point you where to go for your next quest.  Or if the outcome of every decision in FTL was explained to you before you made it. 

[Griddlelol]

You put it better than I could Bjorn. To me what makes BoI good, and those bad items not a punishment, is that when I play, I'm in it for the long game. Each individual run doesn't matter, each individual run is a learning experience that lasts 20 or so minutes. It's the combination of those runs that makes me love the game.

 

Each time I get better at dodging, shooting and I learn which items are good, which items I should trade a heart for and which items are worth the risk to get a powerful synergy.

 

It's weird, I love it for the same reasons people love Spelunky, but I don't love Spelunky...

[Trip Hazard]

I've been thinking about why I don't like it as much as I like Spelunky. I think in BoI, and putting the previous discussion aside for a moment, luck factors into so many different aspects of a run that you can have a bad time if you're unlucky.

 

Even if you know how to play the game, even if you know how to dodge all the bullets and kill the bosses properly, even if you know which items are best and how to exploit the gambling you can do, you can still have a shit, unfun time if you're unlucky. Which is why many players, myself included [citation needed], just abandon a run completely if they aren't getting anything decent by the end of the second floor. It's not fun to struggle along with your weak-ass, slow-as-shit tears, bypassing item rooms because the game just won't throw you a bone and drop a key.

 

Whereas Spelunky gives you all the tools you need to beat the game, right from the get-go, and even if the layouts of the levels happens to be super tricky and you end up spending your bombs and ropes and you don't get nice items that you'd like, you can still win if you're skilled enough, and you might even have a better time with the added challenge. And yes, technically you could still win at that unlucky Isaac run, but it would take forever and be boring.

 

But yeah, I agree with Bjorn and Griddle on that other point.

[Bjorn]

Yeah, I agree the biggest difference is the luck factor, and that ultimately Spelunky requires a greater degree of mastery to do well.  You will never accidently luck into a winning run on Spelunky.  But in Isaac, even a relatively new player could luck into 2 or 3 items that come close to guaranteeing a win. 

[Griddlelol]

 a relatively new player could luck into 2 or 3 items that come close to guaranteeing a win. 

 

Yup, and you feel like a god when you do it. It goes from this game that's impenetrable, to something that feels possible. That's what hooked me. 

 

I think my problem with Spelunky, is that until you get that amazing run, it also feels impenetrable. Unfortunately, getting that amazing run takes a lot longer than for BoI (and still hasn't happened to me).

[Bjorn]

Spelunky didn't click with me until I could consistently make it to the Ice Caves, and then in the course of one evening the entire game opened up to me, so many things just suddenly made sense and worked.

[Ninety-Three]

I don't mind discovery-based gameplay, what bothers me about Isaac is that I feel it crosses the line between "rewarding knowledge" and "punishing ignorance". I had items unexpectedly teleport me to another room, damage me on use, or provide what were if not downgrades, at least sidegrades that made me wish I still had my old attack.

 

I understand that that doesn't bother most people as much as it bothers me, but in this style of game, I hate the idea of the game doing something bad to me that I can't prevent. If I'm skillful enough, I can win any fight without being damaged, but the only way to avoid being screwed by an item with downsides is to have previously experienced being screwed by those downsides. It no longer feels like the game is playing fair.

[Problem Machine]

That's exploration

[mikemariano]

I don't mind discovery-based gameplay, what bothers me about Isaac is that I feel it crosses the line between "rewarding knowledge" and "punishing ignorance".

And if you pick up an item that you absolutely hate and despise, then you're probably going to remember what it looked like and not pick it up anymore.

LOL

Just before reaching Mom in the Solar System challenge, I picked up a "Question Mark" item. Surprise, it's Guppy's Head! I died nine times against Mom.

I guess I'm just ignorant and will have to drill it into my thick head that I don't like Question Marks.

[Cleinhun]

the question mark item is what items appear as if you have a "curse of the blind" floor and it's probably my least favorite curse, or possible right after the one that makes you hp invisible. Honestly I don't think I'm a huge fan of the curse mechanic in general, they mostly make the game harder in ways I find annoying rather than interesting.

[Bjorn]

Okay, I'll totally concede the question mark curse, it's the worst. I do wish the other two curses were as interesting as the XL floor curse.

[Problem Machine]

Though the XL Floor is a blessing just as often as a curse. On the first floor it means you save a key, and you likely wouldn't have saved up enough money yet for the lost shop to matter.

I dunno, I think there's room for improvement with the curses but they do tend to make things interesting in some ways. Curse of the blind makes D6 and Devil Deals, two of the most manipulable elements to break the game, substantially less useful. Curse of the Unknown shouldn't make a difference most of the time but its psychological effect is powerful, which I think is super interesting. Curse of the maze can also be a blessing, since it can be manipulated to bypass locked doors if you're patient.

Curse of the Lost, though, is just a fucking nuisance, and while it hypothetically shouldn't affect you at all if you pay enough attention to the map, no one normally pays that much attention. It mostly just makes finding secret rooms impossible.

[Griddlelol]

I had items unexpectedly teleport me to another room, damage me on use, or provide what were if not downgrades, at least sidegrades that made me wish I still had my old attack.

 

I understand that that doesn't bother most people as much as it bothers me, but in this style of game, I hate the idea of the game doing something bad to me that I can't prevent. If I'm skillful enough, I can win any fight without being damaged, but the only way to avoid being screwed by an item with downsides is to have previously experienced being screwed by those downsides. It no longer feels like the game is playing fair.

 

What I love is that those items that are "bad" often have fantastic combinations with other items. Even if you don't get them, I still enjoy the challenge of being hamstrung and doing the best I can. I learn other things in the process. Interestingly, none of the item combinations make anything impossible. If you're good enough, you can succeed with any item combination, you just have to git gud. 

 

I also don't understand the problem with being teleported to another room. There's a map, and is usually a good thing. 

[Problem Machine]

Well, then there's cursed eye...

[Trip Hazard]

If you're good enough, you can succeed with any item combination, you just have to git gud. 

 

Aye, but you won't have any fun *cough* head trauma *cough*

 

(I hate it so much)

[Griddlelol]

I really like that challenge! It's hard as hell, but it requires you learn how to move perfectly. 

[Deadpan]

Speaking of things we hate, it's amazing how upset I get at the spiders in this game. They give me such trouble for how weak an enemy they actually are. Somehow their random skittering always leads to them either perfectly dancing between my shots, or predicting my sidestep and charging straight at where I'm currently moving. Plenty of bosses that I'd sooner fight than face a room full of spiders, particularly early on.

 

They're just the worst.

 

... I've actually beaten this game many times.