tegan

I Had a Random Thought (About Video Games)

Recommended Posts

Timesplitters 2 is so good. I miss that game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a random thought: Why do so many games have broken economies? The kind where you have so much money that you can always buy everything you want in every shop you find such that money isn't really a resource. I would think that it's easy to notice that the game works that way in development, and I would think most developers understand that's not the way things ought to work, so why does it keep happening?

 

Because it's really fucking hard to have an economy where:

  • the player has to choose what to buy
  • the player can't buy end-game upgrades for a while
  • high-level upgrades feel reasonably priced from the mid-game perspective (i.e. not grindy)
  • prices make some kind of comparative sense

Most games that manage it are fantasy games where the game world makes so little sense that you kind of gloss over the fact that a jar of glass costs a month's worth of food, or there's a bunch of things to spend currency on that don't really have any real-world analogue (such as spending souls on 'character levels' in Dark Souls).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because it's really fucking hard to have an economy where:

  • the player has to choose what to buy
  • the player can't buy end-game upgrades for a while
  • high-level upgrades feel reasonably priced from the mid-game perspective (i.e. not grindy)
  • prices make some kind of comparative sense

Plus a balance has to be struck that makes a game beatable for a player who seeks out only the core content (the person most likely to be screwed by a poorly tuned economy) while still being interesting for a player who seeks out every single piece of content in the game (the person most likely to complain about a poorly tuned economy, even if it breaks in their favor).

My favorite broken economy in a singleplayer game was Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir. The plot of the game was that your party was serving as bodyguards for a caravan company increasingly under attack by straaange forces. As side content, you could invest in the realtime simulation of the caravan network and buy upgrades for the company to improve the overall payout. Unfortunately, it was a relatively simple matter, during character creation, to buy only the basic equipment, tough out the first few encounters, and be set to invest the 2,000 leftover silver in the economy from first moment after the tutorial. Clearly, the developers did not design the systems to handle the early investment and repeated reinvestment of a large cash sum, because maybe an hour into the second act I had well over two million silver. I just... stopped playing, at that point. If my party's that rich, why should they care about some stupid snake cult wrecking shit out in the desert?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly I don't know if you can do it with one currency, or at least I've never seen it done with one currency. The better game economies I've seen have players really resource-constrained at the start, and you need some resource that's locked behind high-end content at the end. You can walk around with 15 million if you want, all it gets you is the ability to shuffle resources around a little easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always found the idea of currency that's more than just currency interesting.  Take Metro 2033.  That game uses pre-apocalypse military grade ammunition as currency, but it can also be used in your weapons to much greater effect than standard ammo.  Besides being an interesting mechanic that allows you to literally shoot money, it also gives the money a real use in the scenario where you no longer need it as currency.  Money in most games is a resource that requires time and effort to get, but neither of those things usually matter to the game.  The supply is basically infinite and the demand is a demand of one.  Unless you have a system that goes beyond that basic interaction, earning money is pretty trivial and spending it even more trivial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Often it seems like currency is just a low level gating mechanic to prevent you growing too fast too quick. When that's the main point, who cares how it ends up near the end of the game, by then you're so near the end game that most gates are flung open.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mount & Blade: Warband single-player economy works great because if you play like me, you lose large quantities of your money and loot by underestimating an enemy party.

------------ separate random thought about video games

Robert Yang wrote a post about how his development-workflow considers the 95% of people who know about his games, who will never play them.

http://www.blog.radiator.debacle.us/2015/10/not-manifesto.html?m=1

The comments are worth reading too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you rate a game on 3DS, you're given the option forced to say whether it appeals more to girls or boys. What if it appeals to both? Why do I have to choose? 

This is a new addition too. It never used to be like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always found the idea of currency that's more than just currency interesting.  Take Metro 2033.  That game uses pre-apocalypse military grade ammunition as currency, but it can also be used in your weapons to much greater effect than standard ammo.  Besides being an interesting mechanic that allows you to literally shoot money, it also gives the money a real use in the scenario where you no longer need it as currency.  Money in most games is a resource that requires time and effort to get, but neither of those things usually matter to the game.  The supply is basically infinite and the demand is a demand of one.  Unless you have a system that goes beyond that basic interaction, earning money is pretty trivial and spending it even more trivial.

 

I mean, there's a lot of games that try to present to you alternative sinks for currency. I always liked System Shock 2 as an example of this, where your nanites can be used to build supplies in vending machines, or you can use them to conduct repairs, hacks, or upgrades. (And SS2 is balanced so that you basically never have enough currency to do all of these in aggregate, you have to make your choices.)

 

I think the real genius of the system in Metro is that it's presenting a conundrum of a short term crutch versus long term benefit. Use them to overcome a difficult obstacle, essentially spending them on making progress through the game, or hang onto them stubbornly with the hope that at some undetermined interval you'll be able to spend them on a more material and lasting benefit. (Which is quite unlike the above choices in System Shock 2, since all of those avenues for spending generally result in access to more or better tools.)

 

I mean, and it only works because Metro is kind of ruthless, it's a really difficult game. It's a choice that would have no weight if the game was any easier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the real genius of the system in Metro is that it's presenting a conundrum of a short term crutch versus long term benefit. Use them to overcome a difficult obstacle, essentially spending them on making progress through the game, or hang onto them stubbornly with the hope that at some undetermined interval you'll be able to spend them on a more material and lasting benefit. (Which is quite unlike the above choices in System Shock 2, since all of those avenues for spending generally result in access to more or better tools.)

 

I mean, and it only works because Metro is kind of ruthless, it's a really difficult game. It's a choice that would have no weight if the game was any easier.

 

To be clear: I haven't actually played Metro, I just know that ammo as money is present in the game.  Still, from what I've heard it sounds like the ammo money is way more interesting than just having a different ammo type you can buy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It kinda works but it is also hampered by the fact that UI for switching ammo type isn't exactly handled that well (it's same button as reload except I think it had to be held down or something?) so I ended up accidentally wasting military grade rounds more than deciding to use it to get out of dangerous situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The World Ends With You has a post-game that's almost entirely driven by high-level drops instead of cash. Everything boils down to cash, though, which is useful because there's a high-end department store that you've been running past the entire game and now that you've got ridiculous amounts of money, you can walk in, buy a million-yen watch, and freak out the sales staff.

 

We are never going to see a sequel to that game, and at this point I'm tempted to make my own instead of waiting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Path of Exile I think has a very interesting economy with its multiple forms of currency ranging from identification scrolls to orbs that change the modifiers of an item and orbs that change the implicit values of those modifiers.

Doubling the games crafting resource as it's main bartering currency forces players into a weird risk/reward situation. The chances of crafting an item worth selling for serious orbs is low enough that most times you need deep pockets to begin crafting seriously, and there are plenty of other ways to burn money so you end up asking yourself if you should be hoarding, trying to craft gear, trading for the things you want to use, or trying to craft better map modifiers for the chance of getting xp faster, more currency, or rarer gear.

Crafting recipes aren't given by the developers up front and they're instead left to the discoverers to keep secret and exploit or share. Which has resulted in mass inflation of market economies multiple times as new end tier items flood the market. A few months ago the second most valuable orb in the game doubled price in a temporary league/economy in the space of a few weeks because some trading barons were using them en masse to produce 'perfect' items to sell.

So yeah the EVE/Metro/PoE way of making sure you can actually sink your items to using them in ways other than just money transactions is interesting.

I guess a more common way would be to stretch your economy over multiple resources and introduce sinks through activities players regularly engage in (like gear repair) as many MMo's do but I don't think it's as fun/engaging.

I also think that in the right type of game the player could simply be robbed, extorted, or just paid lower than they're worth. Money could be too tight to actually float around in such quantities. Who in a mud and crud fantasy world actually knows the value of a million? Maybe the economy runs in barter and services with money only paying for few things? Or people of a region value morality or loyalty more than cash?

---

Anyway I came to post about how I'd like to see more games that are actually about engaging friendships and choices.

I know it's pretty broad but I was thinking about the movie The Three Burials of Melquaides Estrada and how good it would be to see that kind if powerful friendship narrative in a game. I might try to make my version of that game over the summer. I think I could make it work as a Metroidvania/Rpg using Stencyl..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a random thought: Have you ever seen a game with explosive barrels where the barrels are placed anything less than perfectly? I was playing a game and thought to myself "Jeez, these badguys couldn't get exploded any better if they were trying", then I realized that described every game I could remember. It feels like explosive barrels are no longer an interesting part of an envrionment, instead they're a skip-ahead button: "Tired of shooting dudes? One bullet to this barrel and those dudes will go away".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We need a game where the explosive barrels are modelled with realistic physics that allows them to be moved around. The bad guys can pick them up and move them, you could even knock them over and make them roll down a hill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or barrels that sometimes explode when shot, but also sometimes just start leaking. Also sometimes a red barrel with a yellow warning symbol is old and has been emptied, so shooting it does nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a random thought: Have you ever seen a game with explosive barrels where the barrels are placed anything less than perfectly?

Metal Gear Solid V, at least I have yet to find a use for the bloody things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a random thought: Have you ever seen a game with explosive barrels where the barrels are placed anything less than perfectly? I was playing a game and thought to myself "Jeez, these badguys couldn't get exploded any better if they were trying", then I realized that described every game I could remember. It feels like explosive barrels are no longer an interesting part of an envrionment, instead they're a skip-ahead button: "Tired of shooting dudes? One bullet to this barrel and those dudes will go away".

 

In STALKER the explosions aren't that powerful so the barrels are not super useful most of the time. Also ammo is better conserved with headshots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a random thought: Have you ever seen a game with explosive barrels where the barrels are placed anything less than perfectly? I was playing a game and thought to myself "Jeez, these badguys couldn't get exploded any better if they were trying", then I realized that described every game I could remember. It feels like explosive barrels are no longer an interesting part of an envrionment, instead they're a skip-ahead button: "Tired of shooting dudes? One bullet to this barrel and those dudes will go away".

 

Dark Souls 2, explosive barrels are often placed in such a way as to present more of a trap/hazard for the player than as a way to kill an enemy.  And you've got to have fire arrows/bolts if you want to be able to 'splode them from a distance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In Divinity Original Sin I think the barrells end up in more hazardous places than advantageous. Of course the player can just pick them up and move them around in that game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dark Souls 2, explosive barrels are often placed in such a way as to present more of a trap/hazard for the player than as a way to kill an enemy.  And you've got to have fire arrows/bolts if you want to be able to 'splode them from a distance. 

 

in Fallout 3 and X-Com cars were as much an asset as a hinderance. You had to be aware of their pre or post exploded status and how much smoke is coming out of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Metal Gear Solid V, at least I have yet to find a use for the bloody things.

 

They are often placed quite useful near people, but they are work perfectly as distraction. I used it once and it didn't alarm them (unlike a hand grenade).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeez, I have played Fallout 3, Divinity, and XCOM, but somehow I completely forgot about those explosive barrels. Huh.

 

Or barrels that sometimes explode when shot, but also sometimes just start leaking. Also sometimes a red barrel with a yellow warning symbol is old and has been emptied, so shooting it does nothing.

 
Fun story! When Bulletstorm was in development, the explosive barrels were green (they didn't want to be cliche). Players didn't shoot the green barrels. They just didn't internalize that green barrels were explosive. The devs painted the barrels red and their problems went away. Apparently players have extremely strong expectations about the behaviour of barrels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jeez, I have played Fallout 3, Divinity, and XCOM, but somehow I completely forgot about those explosive barrels. Huh.

 
 
Fun story! When Bulletstorm was in development, the explosive barrels were green (they didn't want to be cliche). Players didn't shoot the green barrels. They just didn't internalize that green barrels were explosive. The devs painted the barrels red and their problems went away. Apparently players have extremely strong expectations about the behaviour of barrels.

I think I've played a game where green barrels spread some sort of bio sludge. I would totally shoot them, I shoot all the barrels just in case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now