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heybeardo

The Ethics of Battlefield: Hardline

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A lot of what I have to say about this topic has been covered by other people, but I'll say it anyway.  I should also state that I haven't seen the video yet either for the same reasons as Griddlelol.

 

I agree that the game is basically just a reskin and at the core concept, is really no different than shooting insurgents or soldiers or aliens or whatever.  I think the thing that might make it uncomfortable for some people is the fact that this skin is a little closer to home than those other things.  I think that a relatively small percentage of people who play games of this type have any actual military service (not to say that there aren't any at all).  Even fewer of them have actually been in combat or in a front line scenario.  However I believe that pretty much everyone has seen a cop, or knows where a police station is.  It's been brought up before in other non-game topics that real life shooting incidents seem to be increasingly common.  I don't want to debate that topic here, but my point is that this isn't in some other country or a made up location, these are in people's own backyards.  A cops vs. robbers game is going to take place in a setting most people will be familiar with, possibly even one they lived through.  It seems like it would be easier for most people to separate themselves from the soldier in the desert than it would be from the police officer on the street.

 

That's mostly speculation on my part and I could be entirely off base, but it's what kept running through my mind as I read this thread.

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A lot of what I have to say about this topic has been covered by other people, but I'll say it anyway.  I should also state that I haven't seen the video yet either for the same reasons as Griddlelol.

 

I agree that the game is basically just a reskin and at the core concept, is really no different than shooting insurgents or soldiers or aliens or whatever.  I think the thing that might make it uncomfortable for some people is the fact that this skin is a little closer to home than those other things.  I think that a relatively small percentage of people who play games of this type have any actual military service (not to say that there aren't any at all).  Even fewer of them have actually been in combat or in a front line scenario.  However I believe that pretty much everyone has seen a cop, or knows where a police station is.  It's been brought up before in other non-game topics that real life shooting incidents seem to be increasingly common.  I don't want to debate that topic here, but my point is that this isn't in some other country or a made up location, these are in people's own backyards.  A cops vs. robbers game is going to take place in a setting most people will be familiar with, possibly even one they lived through.  It seems like it would be easier for most people to separate themselves from the soldier in the desert than it would be from the police officer on the street.

 

That's mostly speculation on my part and I could be entirely off base, but it's what kept running through my mind as I read this thread.

 

I think that's definitely an element to it. Over There vs. most people's day to day life. It's easier to detach yourself when you don't relate to the setting or situation. Explains why it's sometimes easier to look past bad things happening in other countries.

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From what I've seen - granted barely anything - it doesn't look like Police vs Criminals. It looks like caricatures of cops and robbers, like in serious movies that no one takes seriously.

 

I can imagine the class select screen having a choice between Schwarzenegger (heavy), Van Damme (support) and Stallone (demolitions). Maybe I'm hoping for this. Because if they do it, I'll pre-order my first ever battlefield game.

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Apparently there has been an Expendables game, and it was terrible.  That's a missed opportunity there. 

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I have a wierd conflict of opinions here. I play Payday 2 a decent amount, and really enjoy it, but I'm not generally a fan of the cop killing thing to the point where I have refused to buy music with those themes in it. I think where it ends up being different for me is that Payday 2 treats the whole thing like a giant crazy action movie. At no point does the game feel serious and it's almost like I'm playing a dumb summer flick. EA has sold their last couple of main Battlefield games (I never played Bad Company) as super serious, "real war is like this" type stuff. That becomes really problematic for me now that they want to switch tone and start goofing about cops and robbers. GTA took the same turn for me between three and four. GTA3 was a lot more like a bad crime movie, where GTA4 took everything super serious. By the time I got to the end of GTA4, I never wanted to play another Rockstar game. I certainly never did the "Get to 5 stars then see how long I can survive" thing.

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There's music that has stuff about killing police people? 

 

Why am I so much more disgusted by that than killing thousands of cops in a video game? 

 

If I try to rationalise it I come up with something like "well you gotta kill something in a shooter..."

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There's music that has stuff about killing police people? 

 

Why am I so much more disgusted by that than killing thousands of cops in a video game? 

 

If I try to rationalise it I come up with something like "well you gotta kill something in a shooter..."

 

Man, I was in high school when "Cop Killer" was the flavor of the week for music that pissed old people off (super NSFW if you've never heard it before):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5gRIud57jQ&feature=kp

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LOL!

Yeah I don't find this offensive, it's too terrible to be offensive. It reminds me of when I was in high school and a friend of mine decided to play this white power music while we were in the car. He thought he was being a badass but the other 3 of us erupted in laughter at how terrible it was.

 

Holy shit this is off-topic. So yeah, shooting polygon cops doesn't bother me, but I guess how I can see that the idea of it might bother someone else. Hardline just looks like the devs wanted to make a cool game that wasn't about the army anymore but maybe were a little tone-deaf.

 

I guess in the end my opinion on this is irrelevant. I'm never going to buy the game, can't stand Battlefield games.  :fart:  :fart:

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Using crime and law enforcement as background for violent media seems so thoroughly entrenched in our media history, I'm not sure what makes any one particular example stand out over another, unless there is something really specific and problematic going on (like racism). 

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I can appreciate the creative impulse to make a first person shooter about something other than shooting aliens or equally justifiable opposing militant forces in the face, but this iteration feels like a bit more than tone deafness. More of a mist-step. The "glitching out of a penthouse suite window without a parachute" kind?

Also it takes ages to actually get anywhere, not all the skyscrapers have the trailerized rooftop views, and at this stage in the beta the lifts are weird. Also I suck at Battlefield Hardline.

 

Using crime and law enforcement as background for violent media seems so thoroughly entrenched in our media history, I'm not sure what makes any one particular example stand out over another, unless there is something really specific and problematic going on (like racism).

 

For me, part of it is the interactive and relentless nature of the cop on criminal deadly violence that drives the genre dead-end home.

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There's music that has stuff about killing police people? 

 

Why am I so much more disgusted by that than killing thousands of cops in a video game? 

 

If I try to rationalise it I come up with something like "well you gotta kill something in a shooter..."

The CD I was thinking of specifcally was a System of a Down album, but there's also a ton of rap and hip-hop about that subject as well.

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I strongly disagree with this. When you take into account that COD focusses on the middle east where many are forced into violence by their extremist peer or superiors it makes the whole voluntary thing plain wrong. 

It's pretty much the same on the western side too, many people "volunteer" for the army because they have no other option, and the only stable employer in the region is army - specifically in the US. It has very little to do with nationalism. There's not much of a choice between join the army or starve is there?

 

The difference between the two games is a reskin.

 

I've not been able to watch the video - I tend to read forums during downtime at work so videos are out, but I think the analysis that "killing X feels wrong" in every context is a little silly. Maybe I'm desensitised to it all, but when I'm playing a game, I know I'm shooting/stabbing/jumping on imaginary things. Sure I can feel emotionally attached to characters, but beating enemies has very little effect on me. They're all essentially robots. 

It reminds me of when I was a teenager and my friend came round. I popped in Halo and he said "This is boring, I want to shoot people." I honestly didn't understand the difference, and I still don't. They're all the same to me. It's also why I think the whole "violence in video games makes people violent" argument is laughable. 

The fact that Battlefield is just a playground for shooting goes to support that it's not pushing any sort of narrative. There was no anti-american rhetoric when it was Allied vs Nazis, there is unlikely to be any anti-police, pro-crime rhetoric in Hardline, nor will the message be about the dehumanization of criminals. The designers wanted something cool and fun for people to play. A lot of people forget about this aspect with AAA games, and to me Cops 'n' Robbers sounds like it'll strike a chord with many people as fun. 

 

Also: Who hasn't spent hours killing cops in GTA X? 

 

On another point, Spec ops: The Line isn't what I'd call a thought provoking shooter. It's more thought provoking than many shooters, but not by a hell of a lot. It's a pretty weak game, with a few interesting parts - especially the ending. I don't regret playing it, but if I had know how average it was going to be I would have skipped it. I think people talk it up because it actually had the balls to do something different, rather than because it was good.  

 

 

P.S. I hope my post doesn't come across as "you're thinking about it too much" because that's not what I'm saying. It's good to think about things! 

 

 

You're right, that was a bit of a mis-characterization on my part.  Certainly people can be forced into military service, I was more speaking from my experience.  Most likely someone with enough money to buy video games isn't going to be in that group.  I suppose if you play games primarily for the mechanics or multiplayer interaction, the aesthetic probably doesn't make that much of a difference within reason.  However if those two groups were Nazis and Jewish resistance fighters battling it out in a concentration camp, then the question of a game's ethics becomes more important.  Sure, Hardline isn't to that extreme, but it is a game that completely does away with even the semblance of the things traditional shooters tend to set up as the player's motivation for wanting to play.  Mechanically shooters may just be reskins, but the context of your actions can help to define the character of the game.  Ultimately the setting is still important.

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I haven't read much of the posts in this thread, but I hope the thing that is being questioned about Hardline in this thread is how it pornographically inflates and glorifies militarized law enforcement, and how that insidiously creates power fantasies by way of police brutality against fantasy super criminals that are also heavily militarized. In other words, I really hope ya'll are questioning how this game is bombastically glorifying police brutality and collateral damage when, right now as I type this, law enforcement of this country and around the world are abusing their power to oppress, harass, abuse, and kill innocent people, specifically poor people, specifically poor people of color.

 

Also, I hope ya'll aren't questioning the importance of "Cop Killer". Behind the very straightforward, simple lyrics and admittedly troubling message of killing law enforcement, the meaning and history behind that son is extremely important, a cold-hearted but sincere protest song against police violence towards African Americans, specifically the infamous Rodney King beating.

 

That's all I gotta say about this stupid fucking game. The ideals behind Hardline are so gross I just wanna straight up not buy another Battlefield game, which is saddening since it's one of the few modern FPS multiplayer games that I truly enjoy. This sours my whole perception of DICE as a developer, and further segments my disgust towards EA, gaming culture, and the AAA game industry.

 

Just absolutely disgusting. 

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Just absolutely disgusting. 

 

I think you're over-reacting just a little. To me it seems like you're reading a message that isn't there. It's just people wanting to make a cool game that's not about soldiers. They're not trying to push some ultra-conservative propaganda on how it's ok to have militarised police kill swathes of criminals. 

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I think you're over-reacting just a little. To me it seems like you're reading a message that isn't there. It's just people wanting to make a cool game that's not about soldiers. They're not trying to push some ultra-conservative propaganda on how it's ok to have militarised police kill swathes of criminals. 

 

"Over-reacting". You didn't get what I mean. I never stated that DICE has intentions to shove down some conservative agenda down my throat. It's the fact that militarization of law enforcement is blatantly and thoughtlessly portrayed in a glorified manner because, like you said, they "want to make a cool game that's not about soldiers", without thinking about the harmful deals they are promoting through their stupid game. 

 

Even when you're not having nothing to say, you are still promoting politicized ideals in your work. As an example, Guillermo del Toro never had a political message to push when making Pacific Rim. but fragments of his very progressive, globalist idealism is present within his film without his intentions. Works of art reflect those who make it (which is "no shit" territory right there), and a we have to critique the impact or the intentions these messages have on society, regardless if some dudes just WANTED TO MAKE A COOL GAME WITHOUT SOLDIERS, MAAAAN. That doesn't excuse the fact they are making a power fantasy about militarized cops when, as I said previously, dirty cops are killing innocents in this country, or giving small time criminals no fair treatment and abuse them, and, yes, kill them.

 

It's this gross game industry-wide complacency of "GAMERS WANT XPLOSIONS, THEY WANT HOT, HIGH OCTANE ACTION" without being a tiny a bit intelligent on how they handle that, specially when they are handling real life bullshit that goes on right now and instead they want to make a fucking Michael Bay-like game for a quick billion dollar buck from mainstream audiences. I kinda want to blame the publishers, which force their devs from any creative liberty and make them churn out the same bullshit in a worse, more dishonest skin.

 

But, you've made me realize something that makes me more disgusted about this game: DICE and/or EA probably DID think that this was a cool idea and put no thought into what their game might mean towards people aware of police brutality and collateral in this country. That is lazy. That is idiotic. That is POLITICAL. That's hella irresponsible, and that's fucking disgusting. 

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But, you've made me realize something that makes me more disgusted about this game: DICE and/or EA probably DID think that this was a cool idea and put no thought into what their game might mean towards people aware of police brutality and collateral in this country. That is lazy. That is idiotic. That is POLITICAL. That's hella irresponsible, and that's fucking disgusting. 

 

I think it really depends on the tone they go with in the game. If they just go with a dumb, fun cops vs robbers thing (something virtually every human being played growing up) then I really don't think there is an issue here. I think they are more likely to fuck up if they do try to attach some kind of message or deeper meaning than if they just give us a big playground to go "bang bang" at each other.

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I think it really depends on the tone they go with in the game. If they just go with a dumb, fun cops vs robbers thing (something virtually every human being played growing up) then I really don't think there is an issue here. I think they are more likely to fuck up if they do try to attach some kind of message or deeper meaning than if they just give us a big playground to go "bang bang" at each other.

 

I think the point was more that you shouldn't take on such important themes at all unless you plan to handle them serious and well.

 

And when you look at the footage, it looks realistic rather than cartoony so it's debatable how removed from real life it is.

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Somewhat relevant:

 

I asked my 8 year old nephew what he would want to be able to do in a computer-game (he's mostly exposed to free mobile games) and he said "I wish there was a game where you could be a soldier." He is obsessed with police and soldiers and large equipment-vehicles like bull-dozers.

 

I was also looking through some of my artwork from elementary school and it often planes and missles and war.

 

tumblr_n7bs2dInZR1s7gx5to1_1280.jpg

 

Interesting, here is the wikipedia page showing many Iraqi flags.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Iraq

 

I don't think it makes Cine's concerns or arguments invalid, but there is obviously a general cultural tendency that DICE falls in line with (probably due to perceived consumer demand). When I was a kid, we would stuff as many magnolia seed-pods in our pockets as we could and then run around the woods grenading each other with them. There is something essentially fun about trying to hit each other with projectiles. Multiplayer shooters are a highly developed genre because there is something intoxicating about sneaking up on someone else or providing covering fire. 

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Let me ask this: what makes the cops and robbers theme any more or less important than soldiers in a battlefield?  I realize this is a problematic question but I still think it's relevant.

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I think the point was more that you shouldn't take on such important themes at all unless you plan to handle them serious and well.

 

And when you look at the footage, it looks realistic rather than cartoony so it's debatable how removed from real life it is.

 

I don't see why this game would have to be serious just because it's using the cops versus robbers theme. I don't really like the notion that certain themes like this should only be done in a serious manner. 

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Let me ask this: what makes the cops and robbers theme any more or less important than soldiers in a battlefield?  I realize this is a problematic question but I still think it's relevant.

This is what I don't get. Why is this the game that brings everyone to the edge? Why are the many years of glorifying war not just as terrible? We can all agree that killing is bad, right? So why don't people get up in arms every time we get another Modern Warfare? (Or, as is the case more often today, Near-Future Warfare.)

 

And then to approach it from Zeus' side, because it's worth considering...

 

Police brutality definitely exists, yes, of course, but just like cops in real life don't go around blowing up cranes to bring down a building to stop the robbers, cops in this game aren't going to be beating up a civilian because they're on a power trip or because they're racist or because they like it.

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This is what I don't get. Why is this the game that brings everyone to the edge? Why are the many years of glorifying war not just as terrible? We can all agree that killing is bad, right? So why don't people get up in arms every time we get another Modern Warfare? (Or, as is the case more often today, Near-Future Warfare.)

 

 

The specific themes of this game (police militarization, etc) may strike a personal nerve with someone that the more war oriented shooters do not, which could then provoke more of a reaction.  That's not to say the other games are totally okey-dokely fine, but their existence doesn't preclude someone having a problem here. 

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The specific themes of this game (police militarization, etc) may strike a personal nerve with someone that the more war oriented shooters do not, which could then provoke more of a reaction.  That's not to say the other games are totally okey-dokely fine, but their existence doesn't preclude someone having a problem here. 

 

I made the same argument in my other post.  I can understand the game's theme affecting some people more than others, but I don't think it necessarily means that the theme itself is any better or worse by comparison. 

 

I should say I don't care about Battlefield, be it cops or soldiers, so I don't have a particularly strong opinion in this specific instance.

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