The Ultimate Playthrough, Metal Gears!?

[N1njaSquirrel]

Which irritating house fight? Do you mean with Laughing Octopus? What didn't you like about it?

 

Not octopus, the fight after you first meet Meryl in the first act. Laughing Octopus was an awesome fight. I have tranq'd all the bosses so far, thanks to the super useful shotgun ammo, which really makes no sense.

 

The 'Beauty' part of the fights are always really weird and feel kinda pointless? They just slowly walk towards you. What happens if you let them grab you?

 

Also the way Drebin described them as 'sexy babes with war-torn pasts' or something like that made me cringe a bit. I do really like the boss designs though.

 

Also also, why do gekkos make mooing noises? What's with them.

[Griddlelol]

The mooing is super creepy. That's why. 

[N1njaSquirrel]

Oh. Is that all? I thought there was going to be more to it. Like it's genetically altered goat DNA or something.

 

Anyways, update: I finished MGS4 last night. That was a blast! I loved the last boss fight, how it transitioned between all the MGS's was a real delight. It also reminded me how awful the MGS2 fight was.

 

Ultimately I really liked 4. The story was real good at wrapping everything up, almost like it was all kinda planned. My only gripe was that I probably wasn't actually playing the game much. I realise now why people call it a cut scene emulator, because by jove it really is. Not that that's a bad thing, I think, because the plot is interesting and suitably nuts.

 

I was talking to a friend about it, and he wanted to know the order of favourites, so here goes: 3,1,4,2.

 

I like 2, but it controlls like balls, and the story is so overbearingly confusing.

[Atlantic]

The final boss fight is glorious. The first time I got to it I laughed the whole way through, because it's so silly. I like when Liquid gives Snake a kiss on the cheek (which is something that can happen in that fight).

 

How did you feel about the epilogue?

 

... where Big Boss shows up for some reason and gives a powerpoint presentation in the graveyard? And Zero pisses himself in a wheelchair? And then Big Boss kills a 105-year old man in a vegetative state. Harumph.

As grim as it would have been, it should have ended with Snake blowing his brains out to stop spreading the mutated FOXDIE that was in him.

 

Ultimately, MGS4 is uneven, but it's still a very good game. I'd agree with you though: 3, 1, 4, 2.

[Twig]

2 is better than 1 so you're both already wrong.

[Atlantic]

Actually, I'd revise what I said and say 3, 1, 2, 4, because 2 doesn't work unless you've played 1.

[syntheticgerbil]

I'm pretty sure all Metal Gears and most legged robots make some kind of animal noise in the series. It's just a shamelessly unrealistic nerdy thing.

[pyeixe]

The final boss fight is glorious. The first time I got to it I laughed the whole way through, because it's so silly. I like when Liquid gives Snake a kiss on the cheek (which is something that can happen in that fight).

How did you feel about the epilogue?

... where Big Boss shows up for some reason and gives a powerpoint presentation in the graveyard? And Zero pisses himself in a wheelchair? And then Big Boss kills a 105-year old man in a vegetative state. Harumph.

As grim as it would have been, it should have ended with Snake blowing his brains out to stop spreading the mutated FOXDIE that was in him.

Ultimately, MGS4 is uneven, but it's still a very good game. I'd agree with you though: 3, 1, 4, 2.

I like the wedding

[N1njaSquirrel]

The final boss fight is glorious. The first time I got to it I laughed the whole way through, because it's so silly. I like when Liquid gives Snake a kiss on the cheek (which is something that can happen in that fight).

 

How did you feel about the epilogue?

 

... where Big Boss shows up for some reason and gives a powerpoint presentation in the graveyard? And Zero pisses himself in a wheelchair? And then Big Boss kills a 105-year old man in a vegetative state. Harumph.

As grim as it would have been, it should have ended with Snake blowing his brains out to stop spreading the mutated FOXDIE that was in him.

 

Ultimately, MGS4 is uneven, but it's still a very good game. I'd agree with you though: 3, 1, 4, 2.

 

Yeah, the big boss was a really nice suprise. That genuinely made me excited. Also that his voice actor is different from 3, and is much, much better. it's still baffling as to why people were upset Hayter isn't going to be BB in V. That powerpoint presentation was also a bit of a confusing mess, but something that I assume will be cleared up in V.

 

I did think it was mean for BB to kill zero like that, but it shows something about his character.

 

And yeah, snake should have killed himself. It would have made the ending so much better having a tinge of sadness. I guess hideo couldn't give him a sad ending. I suppose this meant that there is a possibility for a 6, if things hadn't gone down the way they did (although there still is, I guess)

 

Actually, I'd revise what I said and say 3, 1, 2, 4, because 2 doesn't work unless you've played 1.

 

If anything, that makes 2 worse, even more so for it to be so convoluted. I realise 4 is in the same boat, but 4 makes a lot of effort to tie everything up.

 

Also, the thing I love about 4 is otacon. He's such an adorable nerd, that you can't help but love him. All the best bits were with Otacon. Like when snake finds out he stole the octocamo blueprints. That was the best.

[Smart Jason]

Do we really need to spoiler tag the end of 4? Oh well.

 

I always see people complain about the ending saying that Snake should have pulled the trigger, and I totally disagree. I think it says so much about his character, and falls in line with everything we know about him, that he's unable to. I find the visual of him on knees, sweating, unable to end his life, really remarkable.

 

Big Boss' entrance doesn't allow Snake an indefinite reprieve - he's still dying from the premature aging hardwired into his genetic code. He's not well enough to have any more adventures or save the world again. His reward is that he's allowed to die like a civilian - to live out the rest of his short life naturally and watch the sun rise, instead of being gunned down on a battlefield like he was literally created to do. As Snake says, he's a beast; a relic from a bygone era that is going to pass away for the betterment of the next generation. The best case scenario is that his best friend was there to remember him. To say this is too happy of an ending reminds me of people who thought The Last of Us' ending was too happy as well, because neither of the main characters died.

 

So, more broadly, I think Guns of the Patriots is an exhaustively underrated game. There's a misery and pallor hanging over the entire experience (particularly, of course, Act IV) that I don't think anything else in this field has achieved. Even indie games which specifically deal with aging and mortality (Passage comes to mind, and other notable titles like Cart Life or Kentucky Route Zero tackle similar themes), they don't have the same legacy as Metal Gear. I find there to be something so overwhelming about watching the evolution of the characters from cavalier young men Metal Gear Solid to profoundly sad and resigned adults in Guns of the Patriots that frequently seem afraid and uncomfortable to speak to one another - which is a tremendous accomplishment of writing, performance, and animation. I vividly remember how weakened and hopeless it felt to play that game.

[syntheticgerbil]

Guns of the Patriots is the highest rated Metal Gear game to ever have come out, which is bizarre considering how uneven and often broken it is. I would say it's up there with one of the most overhyped games to have ever been released in the past decade or so, because when you read some of those original reviews it seems like almost every publication felt like they had just played some kind of masterpiece.

 

I feel like they didn't sufficiently explore Solid Snake getting old to really say anything about it. I kind of fell to the wayside with the incredibly convoluted but overexplained plot (I seriously felt like I sat through three different characters retell me the same backstory using similar images at completely different parts in the game). Then there was a shitload of time just focusing on staring up the crotch of the beauties and telling some long winded and gross tragedy story that is supposed to evoke empathy but leaves the player cold because they have no idea who these people are when they aren't crazy. In effect between all of the other themes and complicated nonsense going on in MGS4, the core (and most interesting) story of a soldier getting old, takes a back seat.

 

I feel like any MGS game dealing extensively with the mess MGS2 made is just not going to have the same emotional resonance of MGS1 or 3 in terms of their simplicity (in Metal Gear standards at least). There's too much you have to pay attention to in order to connect a bunch of dots and understand what the hell is going on in 4.

 

Peacewalker's story was pretty good at staying more compact (and more enjoyable) until you get to the epilogue story. Then I became severely confused and felt like, "not this shit again." I don't even know if most people who are just playing the story missions on Peacewalker in order to understand MGS5 are even seeing the final ending since it's a little bit convoluted to find.

[Smart Jason]

I guess from my perspective, review scores are a very inflated metric - particularly when dealing with a blockbuster series. It's really disenfranchising to see something like Grand Theft Auto V be one of the highest rated games of the decade on Metacritic and subsequently capture nobody's passion when it comes time to talk about what was actually the best game of its year. I'm not trying to be overly cynical about the industry itself, but in too many cases, good reviews just seem like a requisite stage of high profile releases. That said, I admit wholeheartedly that this is completely anecdotal and subjective on my part.

 

I'm more concerned with the previous page in this thread in which people were comparing the Metal Gear games and I saw 4 ranked as last or second to last. While I think all four mainline Metal Gear Solid games are excellent, that's what prompted me to mention it being underrated (as well the complaints I saw being reiterated about its ending).

 

I want to disagree with you about there being a shitload of time devoted to Guns of the Patriots' gross pandering moments or digressions which fell flat. I'd offer that maybe those stick out more in retrospect because they didn't work for you, but I definitely don't think it's at all fair to say that the story of Snake's expiration took a back seat. That is the story of the game; in many ways the story of the series.

 

But hey, opinions, opinions, opinions! I don't want to sour this thread. It should be a celebration! Laugh, and grow fat!

[syntheticgerbil]

Sorry, I don't mean to sound mad about any of it. There were many aspects I liked about Guns of the Patriots, but I suppose as far as cutscene time and Snake's age, I feel like it was only part of the beginning and end while I would have loved it to have been explored much deeper and way more tragic than it was handled. Maybe some more Sunny too, less about Otacon being weird about Naomi who is a strange woman who hangs around kids with her shirt open.

 

I mean, since Solid Snake basically has Jack disease and is a clone created to be killing machine, I was thinking more could be done with a unique situation like that. I suppose NinjaSquirrel was right on the money on where it should have ended.

[Atlantic]

Do we really need to spoiler tag the end of 4? Oh well.

 

I always see people complain about the ending saying that Snake should have pulled the trigger, and I totally disagree. I think it says so much about his character, and falls in line with everything we know about him, that he's unable to. I find the visual of him on knees, sweating, unable to end his life, really remarkable.

 

Big Boss' entrance doesn't allow Snake an indefinite reprieve - he's still dying from the premature aging hardwired into his genetic code. He's not well enough to have any more adventures or save the world again. His reward is that he's allowed to die like a civilian - to live out the rest of his short life naturally and watch the sun rise, instead of being gunned down on a battlefield like he was literally created to do. As Snake says, he's a beast; a relic from a bygone era that is going to pass away for the betterment of the next generation. The best case scenario is that his best friend was there to remember him. To say this is too happy of an ending reminds me of people who thought The Last of Us' ending was too happy as well, because neither of the main characters died.

 

In Act II, Naomi tells Snake that the FOXDIE virus has mutated within him and will at some point leave his body, enter the atmosphere, and kill millions of people. That's why he puts a gun in his mouth. After that it is retconned WITHIN THE SAME GAME, that he's fine and is not a threat. Yes, Drebin gave him nanomachine (take a drink) to alter the course of the virus, but that is only revealed after Snake has a mouthful of handgun. For me, that is a cop out. 

 

What's even sadder is that the Japanese voice actor for Campbell died a short while after the release of MGS4 and Kojima said he wouldn't want to make another game without him. That's why we got Peace Walker and MGSV with Big Boss, and Revengence with Raiden and a lot of new characters. Snake blowing his brains out would have fulfilled the story and would not have mattered for the corporate future of Konami and Kojima Productions, even as far back as 2008.

 

--

 

The idea of Snake becoming an old man is interesting in theory, but it never leaves the realm of cutscenes. Over the course of MGS4, Snake is falling part while we are not in control, hacking up a lung and getting half of his face burnt off. While we are in control of him, no part of the game changes. The only gameplay effect of Old Snake being old is that sometimes after crouching for too long his back gets stiff. I suppose that's the idea behind the suit and the nanomachines (take a drink), but the essence of it is that the game tells you he is old and outdated, but then you control him as a super stealth bastard or a gun-toting lunatic and it doesn't matter that he has a biological killswitch.

 

If the major theme of MGS1 is about genes and the encoded nature of a human being, then MGS2 is about memes and the ability to nurture and change that nature through manipulation of the environment (and the conflict between nature and nurture). Raiden begins his story by trying to copy everything Snake does (in both cutscenes AND gameplay). Later, we have revelations about Raiden's back story as a child soldier in Liberia, and then he wields a sword, which Snake never did. In other words, the overarching controlling idea of the game is expressed in the bits we don't play just as much as the bits we do.

 

TL;DR: MGS2 is better than MGS4 because it is a video game you play, while MGS4 is a video game you watch.

[Smart Jason]

 

In Act II, Naomi tells Snake that the FOXDIE virus has mutated within him and will at some point leave his body, enter the atmosphere, and kill millions of people. That's why he puts a gun in his mouth. After that it is retconned WITHIN THE SAME GAME, that he's fine and is not a threat. Yes, Drebin gave him nanomachine (take a drink) to alter the course of the virus, but that is only revealed after Snake has a mouthful of handgun. For me, that is a cop out. 

 

What's even sadder is that the Japanese voice actor for Campbell died a short while after the release of MGS4 and Kojima said he wouldn't want to make another game without him. That's why we got Peace Walker and MGSV with Big Boss, and Revengence with Raiden and a lot of new characters. Snake blowing his brains out would have fulfilled the story and would not have mattered for the corporate future of Konami and Kojima Productions, even as far back as 2008.

 

--

 

The idea of Snake becoming an old man is interesting in theory, but it never leaves the realm of cutscenes. Over the course of MGS4, Snake is falling part while we are not in control, hacking up a lung and getting half of his face burnt off. While we are in control of him, no part of the game changes. The only gameplay effect of Old Snake being old is that sometimes after crouching for too long his back gets stiff. I suppose that's the idea behind the suit and the nanomachines (take a drink), but the essence of it is that the game tells you he is old and outdated, but then you control him as a super stealth bastard or a gun-toting lunatic and it doesn't matter that he has a biological killswitch.

 

If the major theme of MGS1 is about genes and the encoded nature of a human being, then MGS2 is about memes and the ability to nurture and change that nature through manipulation of the environment (and the conflict between nature and nurture). Raiden begins his story by trying to copy everything Snake does (in both cutscenes AND gameplay). Later, we have revelations about Raiden's back story as a child soldier in Liberia, and then he wields a sword, which Snake never did. In other words, the overarching controlling idea of the game is expressed in the bits we don't play just as much as the bits we do.

 

TL;DR: MGS2 is better than MGS4 because it is a video game you play, while MGS4 is a video game you watch.

 

Is that really a legitimate use of the term retcon? I don't follow the logic of your argument. Snake believes that he has to commit suicide because he carries a virus which will soon kill indiscriminately, and the dramatic tension is that he's struggling to do so. It's then revealed to him that the virus is breaking down and he'll be safe. Unless you bought the game specifically for a scene where Snake eats a bullet, how is that a cop out? That's not a retcon, it's plot progression.

 

I think you're definitely mistaken if you assume it was a choice made to keep the possibility of a sequel open, ruined only by the death of Colonel's voice actor. While it was kept ambiguous whether Snake would survive Guns of the Patriots, Kojima was very clear that the game would be Solid Snake's last well in advance of its development and release. I seriously doubt that that death had anything to do with it (they were working on 4 after the death of Ocelot's, off the top of my head).

 

I hear you about Snake's deterioration not necessarily being reflected in the gameplay. To be honest, I've played so many "disempowering" smaller indie games over the last couple of years which really just come off frustrating and too difficult that I'm kind of over that sensibility. I think there's something to be said for the fact that we're still talking about the series which originated stealth gameplay - which is inherently disempowering on an intellectual level. Even if you play loudly and violently relative to the overall bell curve of the Metal Gear Solid experience, Snake will most likely die if you don't take the time to strategize, hide, or run. All of these are antithetical to the legend of Solid Snake as a mercenary bad ass, which is a theme (the realities of legends) the games have been presenting since day one, put into its most literal form now that Snake is so old.

 

As esoteric as it is, I do want to mention the psyche gauge, which is a gameplay mechanic that is specifically there to support all of this. The weaker you play, the more violent and seen you are, and the more condescended towards Snake is, the worse Snake's mental well-being becomes and that has actual effects such as, notably, reducing your aiming accuracy, how quickly you heal - it can even cause you to vomit. Admittedly, more could have been done to force the player to engage with it, but it exists for this exact reason, and I'm going to swear by it as I continue to revere Guns of the Patriots as a masterpiece.

[syntheticgerbil]

I never had a psyche gauge issue in MGS4 except on playthroughs where I had to do nonsense like kill 500 guards in order to 100%. If you are being stealthy and not killing, it never really impacts you because the game has so many cutscenes it never really is a matter of having time to recharge it. It returns in Peacewalker and does the same but is slightly more punishing depending on the mission difficulty. It's a good deterrence for not getting caught and not killing though.

 

I think with MGS4 they could have played out his deterioration by culling some of Snake's abilities and speed closer to the end, especially since the last chapter is a series of point a to b moments.

[Smart Jason]

Totally fair.

[Griddlelol]

I've been playing through MGS3 concurrently with MSG5. It's the best I've played so far. The story is kinda interesting, I'm not normally one to like magical super heroes, but it's done so tongue in cheek that I can totally get behind it.

 

The aiming still sucks, but what can you do? Everything else controls just fine.  

 

I've just beaten The Pain, which was a really fun boss fight. It's strange to consider how good the boss fights are in this game compared to MGS5. Things have totally flipped. The standard stealth is pretty awkward, compared to 5, where the stealth is amazing, and the boss fights are bland.

 

I do really like the camo system. I head complaints about "constantly switching" which are completely untrue. You can optimise it fairly often but I think it works well.

[syntheticgerbil]

I fucking finally finished Peacewalker last night. I have never spent 145 hours on a game fucking ever. So there, that took days of my life. I got all the weapons, all rare monster hunter drops, all the Peacewalker parts, and the development of everything finished. I wish I had four players to use the human slingshot with.

[Griddlelol]

Was it worth it? I've been tempted to buy it once I finish MGS3. The vita version, because it doesn't look like something I'd play for hours looking at the TV, but could easily be something I could play while watching TV.

[Twig]

I started Peacewalker last night, and played a bit more today.

 

I don't think I like it, to be honest...

 

Anyway in the past month or two I've played and beaten MGS1, MGS2, MGS3, and MGS4. They're all good games!

[syntheticgerbil]

I wouldn't recommend S Ranking everything like a crazy person I am, it's not that it's hard to S Rank regular sneaking missions, but S Ranking bosses and vehicles takes a bunch of supplies you don't get until near the end of the game when you beat all the missions you could have used them on, which is very silly and poorly paced. If you have a good friend to play co-op with (and will sometimes sit there for the cutscenes), I think it's a blast. There's still a bunch of random Japanese and US players online though. If you get super into it, this helps because you can develop two players weapons like the railgun that do a lot more damage when using teamwork.

 

Otherwise if you just play the main game, I like the story and comic book art and it's all divided into nice bite sized chunks in a completely different mission structure than any of other Metal Gear games (besides Portable Ops and V). Also it has a bunch of weird Mother Base stat building stuff, which is kind of fun until you acquired the best soldiers and maxed out your levels early on but you are still playing and some missions require Fulton so you have to keep going back and clearing out all these new guys. You get some funny complaints from Miller on codecs about it though.

 

I wouldn't recommend the Vita version because it's actually the PSP version which doesn't have the second analog stick to control the camera, not sure if that works when playing it on Vita. You can transfer your saves back and forth between the HD Collection though, but I think it requires using your PC to do it if going from Vita to PS3 as opposed to PSP to PS3. It sucks though because I feel personally I would have had more fun if I could have mindlessly loaded up a mission when on the go.

 

Also Paz's diaries make me feel sad for what I know happens to her in Ground Zeroes, she was having such a good time. One of those diaries was like a super awkward lesbian penthouse letter though.

[Twig]

Miller is Solid Snake's master, right, I'm not crazy remembering that from MGS1?

 

Is that, like, ever addressed, ever? So weird.

 

I guess Kojima loves those long-lasting destiny-feeling connections between bloodlines, though, between Big Boss/Solid Snake, Huey/Otakon, and Miller, and probably a lot of others I'm not thinking of.

 

Also, real talk, Ocelot is basically my favorite character in every MGS game. I hope he shows up in Peace Walker? D: D:

[chummer]

well, looks like I'm one year late to this, but i got the Metal Gear collection for PS3 and am going to go through the Solid series. the only MG game i've played is AC!D 2!

 

the one thing i'm worried about is that since i'm going back to a game so old, i'm not enthused about the possibility about reaching a point in the game where i can't continue on because i didn't do something 3 hours earlier and kills all my progress- does this happen anywhere in the series? don't be afraid to be explicit, as i'd rather save myself the headache than the spoiler.

[Patrick R]

Not in 1, 2 or 3. Dunno bout the rest of the series but I doubt it. They aren't Sierra adventure games, they're pretty linear.